The DocJust a wee note on the ski-jump issue. In a magazine called ‘carrier aviation’ I think, about 2000ish ?, Sharky commented that on a operation in the Caribbean Hermes was ‘in action’ against a USN CVN. Hermes launched all her CAG and recovered them all whereas the CVN couldn’t launch a single aircraft due to the sea state.
As for independant Scotland, you could use the dry dock at Harland & Wolfe, its doing nothing anyway. 🙂
The Doclooking at info on other posts i’ve decided to revise my Fantasy fleet cira 1979ish.
TYPE CLASS UNITS REFIT CREW DEPLOYED PLANNING
SSBN Resolution 5,……. 2……143…….429………..0
SSN Trafalgar .. 0,……. 0…….130……….0………..7
SSN Swiftsure ….5………2……..97…….291………..3
SSN Valiant………5……..2…….103…….309……… 0
SSN Dreadnought 1……..0………88………88……….0
SSK Oberon……..13…….2………68……..748………0
SSK Porpoise……..5…….1…….. 71……..284………..0
CV Invincible…….1…… 0…..3250,……3250,…….. 2
CV Queen Elizabeth 3……..1……2940……5880……..0
LPH Hermes……..1…….0……..980……..980………0
DLG County………2…….0……..471……..942……….0
DD Sheffield…….7…….1……..299……1794………..5
FF Amazon……..7……..1…….250……1500…………8
FF Leander……..8……..2…….251……2008…………0
FF BB Leander…..10…….2…….260……2080,……….0
FF Vosper V……..16…….5…….125……1375………..4
FF type 81…………3…….2,……253,……253,……….0
FF type 12 M………1…….0…….235…….235………..0
TOTALS……………..93……23…………..22446……..29
CV Invincibles, cancelled 1966 revised & ordered 1972 ish.Invincible, Illustrious,Indomitable, to be modified CVA-01 with full lenght flight deck, removed Alaskan highway, Ski jump on bow & fitted with Sea Wolf.(Indomitable to replace a Queen Elizabeth by 1987?)
CV Queen Elizabeths, Queen Elizabeth, Duke of Edinburgh & Lord Mountbatten CV1953;s. Flight decks modified as per batch III by Badger1968. fitted for but not with Sea Wolf. QE currently in refit for ski jump.
DD Sheffield & FF Amazon built using common hull 4250 ton 425 x 48 in junction with Australian DDL. DD employing COGOG Sea Dart SAM, Ship Martel SSM, NATO standard 127mm gun, Phalanx CIWS & Lynx helicopter. FF employing CODOG as per the Vosper 5’s, 12 (2×6) Sea Wolf SAM [ bridge roof & Hanger roof] Ikara in lieu of Sea Dart, Ship Martel SSM f’ard of hanger, NATO Standard 127mm gun, Phalanx CIWS &Lynx Helicopter.
Vosper 5’s based at Hong Kong, Aden (vital strategic importance not surrendered) Gibraltar & Belize. CODOG Phalanx CIWS, 76mm DP gun, limbo mortars.
Based on Bristol & T21’s & last 2 counties not being built, tiger’s & leanders not being modified & 5th SSBN constructed. Fewer combat ships but more capable all round for approximately the same manpower.
The DocSelf righting RNLI craft = nice. but still replace the air with water, she sinks. Think that’s whats happened when the Portrush boat had an argument with Rathlin Island. ( Happy to be corrected if wrong)
Nice idea though, a 1000+ft long carrier self righting after being hit. Over 6000 inside thought might be a little ill after.:)
The DocJust a thought! There only ever was one ship built that was “unsinkable”. Unfortunately she sunk on her maiden voyage. A dirty big iceberg put a hole in her.
Moral…. if someone or something puts a big enough hole in a surface ship, it sinks.
Like VIP protection, the opposition has to be successful once, the defended has to be on top of his game all the time.
The Docfrom what info I have available Sea Dart development began in August ’62, the year the Devonshire entered service, with full go-ahead given in May’63. It would appear the last 4 counties were built with what was known to be an obsolete missile system. Bristol was ordered on 4/10/66 so her design was around before this date.
‘Sea Dart was designed as a sucessor to Seaslug. By using considerably smaller and lighter handling equipment that its predecessor it could be made to occupy no more space than a medium-calibre gunnery system.’
1973 saw the conversion of Norfolk with 4 exocets launchers replacing the twin 4.5’s @ B.
With the Counties intended to be A/A escorts, surely common sense would dictate the removal of a system that was now known to be at least 10 years out of date, and as it was designed to fit an area no bigger than a medium-calibre gunnery system, B would be an obvious & straight forward location. It might even have been possible to replace the twin Limbo mortars with the Ikara system, and in all 8 by this date.
With 8 1st class general purpose escorts in service (the counties) there would be no need for the T82, T42’s and the Ikara conversions to the Leanders.
conversion costs could’ve easily been met with the scrapping of the 3 obsolete cruisers in place of their own conversions, Blake 65-68 & tiger 69-72.
with the decisions taken not to go ahead with the ’52 carriers, CVA-01, etc & going ahead with ships that were obsolete before they were even in service one is left to consider which side those that ran the navy were on????
The DocRe H_K‘s costings, could the cost gap be closed when you include the difference in the ‘as built’ difference between Hermes and her 3 sisters?
The DocIn response to H_K and the small air-group.
My 1970 fleet consisted of 3 active (CV 1952) and 2 reserve/refit carriers ( Audacious). Theoretically allowing for a standard CAG (39 aircraft) to fit aboard each flat top, can’t remember where read but think this was the CAG of Eagle or Ark (pre-modernisation), and a reasonable peace time deployable force. 1 fighter squadron, 1 strike squadron, 1 ASW squadron plus supporting aircraft.
Scenarios
If a CV1952 active in North Atlantic and Soviets carrying out a submarine exercise then an extra squadron of ASW aircraft (43 aircraft) could easily be accommodated. If an airborne exercise then an extra squadron of fighters (51 aircraft).
In support of anti-terrorist operations/ colonial war such as Aden then an extra squadron of buccaneers (53 aircraft) could be deployed.
In a Belize, Falklands or Kuwait’61 type incident then you have a choice of either extra fighters, strike or Marines depending on timescale when CVBG deployed.
The Docapologies F/A-18RN was using a hand held which somehow distorted the Fearless line. Should’ve gone to specsavers:eek: see it clearly now I’m on the MAC.
The Docre F/A-18RN’s fleet, I notice no Intrepid.
Airgroups:- P1154 similarities in size and performance to the Jaguar which came into service 1973. Harrier came into RAF service 1969, so say P1154 enter service somewhere in between probably 1971 as a single seat, so 1154 Naval probably 2 yrs behind Shar 1980??? not as FAA wanted but as single seat. Then again the shar ordered in 1975 so if order placed in say 1971 possible service date for Sea Kestral could be as early as 1974. ‘Sea Tonka’ appears to be a natural follow on from the Supermarine 583 which was around 5-6 years earlier so 1981 – 6 yrs would give an RAF date of 1975 and FAA date of approx 1978.
Airgroups from 1978 onwards could be 12 ‘ Sea Tornado’ FRS 1 (twin seat) and 16 ‘Sea Kestral’ FGR 1’s (single seat) plus the necessary other types. Tonkas getting the strike role as designed to be a direct replacement for the Buccaneers and the Kestrals getting the ground role due to their V/STOL capabilities being better suited to supporting booties.
Frigates: the pre-Leanders (28) could’ve been replaced with the Vosper MK5
for oversea stations etc & not part of the main fleet, reducing manpower by a further 622 still 151 over or only commission 26 MK V’s you could be 99 less.
The DocFirstly thanks very much for the sketches Bager1968.
Time line was only chosen as a base point, the furthest realistically i could see to go back to. Your timescale for batch’s I & II would appear to be more plausible, but would wonder upon a name for the fourth carrier.
Point taken concerning the commando carriers, and do like the idea of 4 of them, reinforcing the need to keep 40, 41, 42, 44 & 45 RM Cdo’s.
However thinking of modification to batch III standard, would this not be better post 1970, considering the Polaris boats & modernisation of the carriers be a large financial burden in late 60’s, and could be partially financed by sale of Eagle/ Ark Royal to Australia, who were then in the market for a carrier & possibly Canada or India also. Theoretically the vessels could stay in service for a further 15-20 years so replacements needed sometime between 1990-1995ish.
How would the running costs compare with, during 1980’s with a new 50,000 ton class powered by 6 olympus or speys?
The Docthe hypothetical scenario, it’s in reality a blow up akin to two egjits falling out in a pub, the bouncers will take them aside and talk some sense into them. Hamas & Israel are at war, even if they don’t admit it. realistically turkey may escort vessels to near the Gaza limit, either US or RN personnel will search the ‘aid ships’ give the ok, if they are carrying ‘humanatiarian aid’ and Israel will permit them through. Turkey will ‘protest’ American & British action, Israel will ‘complain’ at being made to look stupid by the Americans & British and every-one will go home and have a nice cup of tea. the press will go away and the Gaza war will go on as normal. no F16 v’s F15 etc.
The DocRe Modernisation my personal choice for Leanders & Counties is simple “modern Frigate” T21 two were sunk in ’82 & “modern destroyer” two sunk, Argonaut & Antrim temporarily put out of action but lived to fight another day.
T21’s & T42 had to be structurally strenghtened due to effects of weather??
Old design = good ship crap weapons
New design = good weapons crap ship
solution put good weapons on good ship.
The promotional photo for the Exocet shows what appears to be a T12 frigate & compared to the pictures to the ‘Sheffield’. Bar the gaping hole….. well compare for yourselves.
The DocRe Names: with the ’70’s fleet being centered around the ‘through-deck cruise’ would naming these ‘Queen Elizabeth, Duke of Edinburgh, Prince of Wales’ through Royal linage or famous ships ‘Queen Elizabeth, Prince of Wales & Duke of York’ in lieu of ‘Invincible, Illustrious & Ark Royal: or were the RN still planning/ hoping for a 50,000t carrier?
The DocHow about Excalibur, Britannia, Ark Royal, Eagle & Hermes?
Modernised counties take the role of your 10 escorts & T82’s?
Deployment 1 North Atlantic mainly ASW Task force ( 2 ASW squadrons, 1 fighter squadron) + 4 counties & 6-8 leanders with support vessels.
Global reach 1 as CVA & 1 as LPH + 4 counties & 4 Leanders plus supports
Leaving 2 in reserve/ refit 4 counties similar. Reasonable size force mix 30-40 attack aircraft & Commando battle group.
Use Anglo-Oz destroyers in fly the flag/ humanitarian etc 8 in service 4 out?
rest of leanders sub-hunting in North-atlantic /Med. & approx 1/3 refit.
Windies/ Hong Kong/ Khormaksar/ Gibraltar/ Cyprus possibly something similar in size / capability to Isreali Saar class. 4-5 units each show British presence ant-pirate etc
The Docnoticed the guys with the RPG took out the bridge. bit scary when the computers failed, sitting duck????
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