Gentlemen, with all the good intensions in the world, it would be great, that every one would behave in a civilized manner. Food supplies would be available to everyone, oil would be available wealth would be equally distributed. Alas this is not the case, & human nature being what it is, never will be.
More and more nation states want atomic weaponry. Today we sit at the big table. Just. Do we sit back and become a little island nation of the edge of Europe and become less and less significant or do we, as a nation wish to still be a respected player in the game of life.
The last time we were conquered was 1066. Thanks mainly to the effort of the Dark blue service & the English Channel. If government, either Tory or Labour continue that could possibly change in our lifetime. today only the USA can properly power project. We can just about, same to France & possibly Russia.
With reference to several different threads etc the club may soon be joined by Brazil, China, India within the next 5-10 years. By 2040 possibly more to follow, more who may be more hostile.
The bearest minimum, I can hit you a lot harder than you can hit me, means SSBN, & i mean as a minimum 2 always at sea.
CVA’s, as I have stressed before at least 5, would prefer 7 each with a LPH. If some-one cut out rough 3 CVBG’s could zone in still in international waters and have the full potential to put 3Cdo brigade on the ground. Whatever DDG’s, SSGN’s & FFG’s are needed to protect the fleet the Treasury, must, as an act of national importance supply the finances.
Remember, at the end of the day, conflicts are only won by the ability to put more greens on the ground than the other guy & to keep them there.
As proved by the US during WW2 building ships, tanks, aircraft etc puts people in work increasing national welbeing hence better health & more wealth, pumping cash into NHS & DHSS drains the system, you get no return for you investment.

When the bean counters run anything you can be sure you’re in trouble. Recent examples. civi street a large construction firm changed it crane hire firm to save £5.00 per day. The new firm wasn’t as good as the old more expensive one and contracts over ran resulting in the firm going bust.
This current government has wasted £billions on failed systems for the Inland Revenue, the CSA & the health service. Actually spoke personally to Darling concerning one at the time’ his response was not very intelligent to say the least.
MOD spent £2M on a new RMP station at Ballykelly. The money had to be spent or loose budget. Two years later the new buildings were bulldozed. Waste of money. Back in the early ’80s we were always told to not to fire too many rounds “you know they’re 51p each don’t waste the tax payers money boys”.
Back to the big toys the money has always been there, but the top brass give the impression they’re to scare to ask for it & so the %age allocated to defence will always got slashed. Imagine the outcry if the money allocated to the social security budget was slashed by 70+%. PS it would still be more that triple the current defence allocation.

Try & get a copy of ” Britain’s Greatest Warship HMS ARK ROYAL IV” by Richard Johnstone- Bryden ISBN o-7509-2504-3 there a a few good pics of the “ARK” with her deck edge guns etc
also Neil McCart’s “HMS EAGLE 1942-1978” ISBN O 9519538-8-5 has plenty of history & pics of the ARK’s 1/2 sister.

to develop my point a little more.
Back in the 1930’s British carriers were designed with the possibility of war. As previously mentioned by others the stuka would be a threat along with cruisers and submarines. When the war did come “Illustrious, victorious & Formidable” all survived attacks which would have simply put other carriers of that era to the bottom. IE armoured carriers with smallish air groups survived & as history proved unarmoured carriers with large air groups didn’t.
Come forward not to the sixties and a possible war again on the horizon with the”commies”. THe USN develops the “Nimitz” class. Unarmoured and large air group. Scaling up the “Essex” to the “Nimitz” and scale up the “Illustrious” to an imaginary “Invincible” would give the RN an armoured carrier of 64,000 light & 77,500 full load. scaling up the armour would give a 5 inch belt & hanger sides, just over 4″ deck & 2 1/2″ hanger deck. NB still with full stability.
War breaks out. “Nimitz” class CVBG heads up to the “Gap”. USSR launches a wave of 50 Backfires. (Remember we are dealing with 1960-70 theory). IF in winter then the US carrier is limited due to the weather. Deck edge lifts become a liability not an aid due to the swell. Catapults did fire aircraft directly into the sea not the air (plenty of evidence on U-tube) extremely hazardous landing etc.IF the CAG not airborne the the carrier is simply a sitting duck. Sea sparrow range 11 miles AS6 150 miles the backfires can stay out of harms way. maths 50 aircraft x 2 missiles =100 ASM’s. speed mach 3.5 claimed =approx 4 minutes to impact. Sorry the “Nimitz” class losses. USSR loses 0 USN losses 6,600+
If CAG up the backfires spotted at 500 miles out. 2 x2 tomcats airborne. first two tomcats take out 3 backfires with phoenix no contest. 14 minutes left & a third 2 tomcats launched. AT 13 minutes next 2 tomcats take out another 3. At 12 min first two take out 6 with sparrow and a fourth pair of tomcats launched. At 11 min second pair take out a further 5. first salvo of AS6 fired.(poss 8) escorts take out possible 6, 1 is a dud and one 4 minutes later hits carrier.
Blast damage immediate facinity 12. a new 12′ dia hole in side and total destruction 20′ all around internally. from there to 50′ horizontally 7-9 severe structural damage. High casualties.
The air battle continues during these last 4 minutes the CAG take out another 12 Backfires and approx another 30 AS6 ‘s launched with at least another 4 hitting the carrier. Carrier gone. RSSR losses <100 USN 6,600+
Imaginary invincible can launch SHAR’s in all weather. With 4 airborne and another 8 immediately available. here is the maths Each SHAR takes our 3 Backfires 12x 3 =36. 14 x 2 =28 AS6 launched. 14 taken out with sea dart & point defence 4 poss dud 4 miss and 6 hit. immediate deck facinity un-operatible but can still launch & recover SHARS. Sides penetrated but armour deflects blast. ships remains intact, just & limps back to base. Losses USSR <100 RN >100<200.
NB armour is there to deflect blast as well as absorb kenetic energy.

very interesting debate about my missile system is better than your radar. please note, a weapon system is only as good as the men who operate it.
1982. According to sources the “25 May” (appologies) was tracked by RN SSN and the only reason she wasn’t converted, along with/ instead of “Belgrano” to a sub was political delay.
Again USN + RN verses RuN very unlikely as most probable outcome would be MAD even in a conventional sense very expensive.
The fact that CVN’s are the prime asset also makes them the prime target.
Re the Twin Towers. US of A unfortunately has many enemies as it is the defender of freedom. Its military might alone would make it suicidal to face in a full scale confrontation. Subility on the part of the attacker is a must.
To embarass such military might out smart him as it hijacking civil airliners & crash into target. no-one though anyone would be evil enough to do it. But it happened.
Whilst super missiles and super radars may or may not work according to the propaganda of their manufacturers an unarmoured carrier is a juicy target, especially to any one wishing to get one up on Uncle Sam.
There are certain people who would love to take one out, and there are times when they do precent an easy target, especially to an SF/ terrorist attack.
As has been noted through-out this and other threads from Seamen to Admiral, mistakes can & do be made. mistakes which cost lives. Regardless of nationality we owe it to the service personnel who are prepared to lay down their lives in the service of others to make sure they have the best weather it be radar/ surviellance systems, aircraft , missiles, guns, and protection.
The Britsh Armoured Carriers proved themselves during WW2 may surviving attacks that would sunk their US counterparts.

Watching on the wing with interest. Read somewhere Eagle was to be refitted same as Vicky but due to cost this wasn’t done. Also note Harries flew of Eagle in early 1970. As Obi Wan suggest, possible fleet attack carriers Eagle & Ark Royal keep Sea Vixens & Buccaneers for power projection alternating commissions, keep the two smaller Vicky & Hermes for ASW and rapid back up as both could operate the attack aircraft & employ harriers in their standard CAG. Would keep fixed wing capable into early ’80s.
Also read somewhere RN considering CODOG propulsion in ’60’s. Possible standard CODOG over whole surface fleet. Multiple units reduced cost. Single shaft frigates, twin shaft destroyers triple shaft for new carriers to come online 1980+. Increase dims of invincibles by 20% would give you approx 50,000 ton. normal running on 3 standard diesels approx 65-70,000 shp =15knots? boost of GT similar shp =30K+?No sea Dart =more reduced cost. SHAR now in service & upgraded S2 with Tornado avionics RN still very capable power projector.

P.1154 could easily have operated off the I class carriers, as could P.1185s6, P.1216 probably could but it would certainly need folding wings.

The one I would most like to have seen was the P.1205, but with the Yak style 3 bearing rear nozzle and an afterburner, essentially a VTOL F-16

Looking up the history given on “X-planes”, some great designs P1205 looks good, but each of us are different & my favourite would have to be the P1132 from 1958 though subsonic but who knows with the further development filtered from the P1154RN program mach 1.4 @ sea level might have been attainable. What says the experts?

Alliances can and do change.

If there was one nation/culture which had real grounds for not allying with UK twould be eire. So why do we have more Irish members of the UK armed forces than from any other nation?! These things are complex.

Al

Answer is simple, come over and count the graves of over 800 Irishmen & women of the UDR, RIR & RUC loyal to the BRITISH CROWN murdered by american funded criminals between’70 &’97, freed by English politicians & still we got over kick Iraqi, & Afghan arses cause we’re BRITISH.