In the long term Ark Royal won’t serve long as a LPH commando carrier IMO, she is too expensive, heavy crew complement and expensive engines and her internal layout seems less than ideal. Her one big advantage over Ocean is speed, but since the rest of the ARG vessels are sub 20kts even this is of limited value unless operating alone as an amphib. They really want another Ocean or similar, cheap to build, cheap to operate and purpose built for the role with excellent internal layout for the embarked group. The newer style commercial build style LPH/LPD types offer an awful lot for little outlay and few if any ships can offer as much capability for such modest outlay, probably the reason they’re so popular.
On the CVF as commando carrier, it is a secondary role but an important one if they actually have to operate in that mode in anger, but I’m guessing the RN will push for another economical LPH as soon as they can.

pardon Ocean is an invincible on the cheap with out gas turbines and commercial build the actual layout is very similar to the upgraded invincible’s i would expect Ark royal should be kicking around till 2020

a selection of articuls about the sorry state of india programs
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/I…ow/2269772.cms

After Gorshkov, another Navy project hit by delay

NEW DELHI: The bad news for Navy shows no sign of stopping. The country’s most ambitious ship-building project, construction of a 37,500-tonne indigenous aircraft carrier (IAC) at Cochin shipyard, is running way behind schedule. Sources said current projections show IAC will be ready for delivery to Navy earliest by 2015, after completion of construction and trials, instead of the earlier date of 2011-2012.

The IAC project, cleared by the government in January 2003 at a cost of Rs 3,261 crore after several years of dilly-dallying, is lagging behind on “almost all fronts”.

“First, there was a big problem in getting 20,000 tonnes of special quality steel for it till SAIL stepped in. Then, there was a huge delay in procurement of bulb bars. Once these was sorted out, other problems crept in,” a source said.

“The detailed designs and pre-production work also took a lot of time. As per revised plans, the keel of the warship was to be laid in October 2007 but this has been postponed by at least an year now. Consequently, the project cost will also go up substantially,” he added.

All this will add to the woes of Navy, already grappling with huge delays in some big-ticket projects. The induction of the decommissioned Russian aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov, for instance, will not be possible before 2010. Rechristened INS Vikramaditya, this 44,570-tonne carrier was supposed to be operationally ready by August 2008, as per the Rs 6,900 crore package deal signed with Russia in January 2004.

Then, of course, there are slippages in the gigantic Rs 18,798 crore project to construct six Scorpene submarines at Mazagon Docks, slated for delivery between 2012 and 2017.

In the IAC project, the government has even signed two contracts worth 28 million Euros with Italian firm Fincantieri for design, integration, installation and commissioning of the IAC’s propulsion system, apart from consultancy in detailed engineering and documentation.

“But despite the steel being cut at the Cochin shipyard in April 2005, the ship construction began only in November 2006,” said the source.

To be charitable, one can argue this is the first time India is building an aircraft carrier, which has been the preserve of only US, UK, Russia and France so far.

But almost all defence projects of India suffer from huge time and cost overruns, underlining the lack of proper planning. Though the Navy has projected the need for three aircraft carriers to emerge as the most potent force in the region, it is making do with only one, the 50-year-old INS Viraat, at the moment. Be that as it may, once it is ready, the 252-metre-long IAC will have two runways with ski-jumps and a landing strip with three arrester wires, with the flight deck being around 2.5 acres.

With 160 officers and 1,400 sailors, the ship will be able to carry 12 MiG-29Ks, eight Tejas Light Combat Aircraft and 10 helicopters. Powered by four LM2500 gas turbines generating 80 MW, the carrier will be able to attain a maximum speed of 28 knots and be operationally deployed for 45 days at a stretch.

The overhaul of a Russian-made aircraft carrier sold to India under a 2004 contract will be delayed indefinitely due to insufficient financing and poor management of the project, a Russian daily said Wednesday.

The contract to deliver the Admiral Gorshkov aircraft carrier to India, which state-run arms exporter Rosoboronexport signed with the Indian Navy in January 2004, covers the modernization of the ship and equipping it with modern weaponry, including the MiG-29K Fulcrum aircraft and Ka-27 Helix-A and Ka-31 Helix-B anti-submarine helicopters.

The ship is undergoing modernization work at the Sevmash shipyard in Severodvinsk, in northern Russia, but its completion could be delayed for at least another four years, according to some reports.

“The aircraft carrier is being overhauled at the shipyard, but, unfortunately, the funds allocated for the work under the contract are not sufficient and we will have a hard time to meet the schedule,” the Izvestia newspaper cited Eduard Borisov, the acting director of Sevmash, as saying.

“We are practically building a new ship using an old hull and changing everything else,” Borisov said, adding that the company’s management had earlier made an incorrect assessment of the modernization cost.

A high ranking source in the defense industry told RIA Novosti that the company’s officials had underestimated the projected overhaul budget by at least 60-70% but had denied their mistakes for a long time.

He said the work already done on the Admiral Gorshkov could be compared to the construction of two destroyers.

“It would have been much easier to start the construction of an aircraft carrier from scratch than to modernize the old one,” the source said.

Former director of the Sevmash shipyard, Vladimir Pastukhov, has been recently fired over his poor management of the project and some media reports suggested that prosecutors had been investigating a possible fraud case over mismanagement of funds by Sevmash officials.

Izvestia said Nikolai Kalistratov, the general director of the neighboring Zvyozdochka shipyard, could be appointed as the new head of Sevmash in the next few weeks.

The $1.5-billion Admiral Gorshkov sale is one of Russia’s largest individual military deals with India. The two countries are currently working on military contracts worth $10 billion.

After joining the Indian Navy, the 45,000-ton aircraft carrier will be renamed the INS Vikramaditya and could replace the outdated INS Viraat, a Centaur-class aircraft carrier, which India purchased from Britain in 1986

Shipbuilder Head Fired Over Delay

Combined Reports Vladimir Pastukhov has been dismissed as general director of Sevmash shipyard, the country’s largest shipbuilding enterprise, over the company’s failure to fulfill a $1.5 billion contract to modernize an aircraft carrier sold to India in 2004, Interfax reported Wednesday.

“The reason for Pastukhov’s dismissal is the failure to carry out the contract to re-equip and modernize the aircraft carrier on behalf of the Indian navy,” a source at Sevmash told Interfax. “The contract is delayed for three years. … The realistic date … is now 2011.”

Under the contract, Sevmash shipyard was due by 2008 to upgrade and re-equip the ship, built in 1987, to combine the power of a missile cruiser and capabilities of an aircraft carrier.

Indian media and officials have said the ship, with a squadron of MIG-29 jet fighters on board, would considerably enhance the firepower of the Indian navy and bring nuclear rival China within range. India is the only country in South Asia that has an aircraft carrier, an issue of concern for some of its smaller neighbors.

Interfax quoted the Sevmash source as saying that miscalculating the amount of work needed to renovate the ship had led to problems.

“After a more detailed examination was conducted, it became clear that the ship’s technological condition is awful and that money allocated for the renovation is not enough,” he said.
The source at Sevmash also said the most likely replacement for Pastukhov would be Nikolai Kalistratov, who is currently general director of Zvyozdochka ship-repair plant, Interfax reported.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/storie…08/02/047.html

Well, it took over 10 years just to negotiate the contract? Now we are told that the ship is in extermely poor condition and the conversion is more complex than originally expected. That said, my point was who knows what kind of problems could materialize after it finally does enter service. Considering the current condition and complexity of the rebuild…………Sorry, but it doesn’t look good?:eek:

sorry for not being clear it’s a bloody shambles already it doesn’t need anything else to go wrong for it to be a shambles that the this carrier has become [ i do believe that it will get worse]

Scoot: F-35B is indeed proving to be on the minds of the few countries that are now looking at LHD’s, but wether they get them or not is another question don’t you think? I mean the F-35A is due for international release in 2015, give it a few years after that before the B models are released.

the B are being releasedbefore the F35A the USMC and the RN need are more urgent so the F35B entering service before the F35A

Six squadrons – WTF?!!! :p

I think six aircraft carriers would be beyond what Russia needs or should aim for. New aircraft carriers are needed, but to be operate six with all the escorts, carrier-borne aircraft, etc? No, I think that would be daft. Complete waste of money.

Besides, what the hell is it going to do with six? Russia has little or no interest in international peacekeeping, dealing militarily with violent countries that don’t threaten it, is self-reliant for energy and will be for ages, etc.

sounds like Britain in the 1950’s wanting 4-6 CBG when it was economically in such a bad way.
its a compleat joke and of no use apart from willy waving and the Russia strong

Japan doesn’t need a carrier to defend against attack, carriers are offensive, not defensive, ships and are not required for Japan (or South Korea) to defend their territorial waters or homeland. For Japan to aquire a strike carrier would be to allow China to determine Japanese defence policy, and usually allowing foreign factors to dictate defence aquisitions results in short sighted and wasteful programs (witness the inter-war 8″ cruiser races, or the inter-war “super” destroyers). A carrier in itself doesn’t really alter much in East Asia, and Japan has the defensive air and sea assets to counter any Chinese carrier program without needing one herself.
If they do buy a carrier, it’ll be a political aquisition rather than a military one IMO.

reminds me of the reson why the buccaneer was developled to counter the russian crusers devople a an innovative counter instead of just the same type of ship just bigger

on the Japanies DDH it seems to exeptionaly badly desinged to fixed wing ops especaly with the lifts right in the middle of the deck not even Giuseppe Garibaldi (551) puts the lifts in the placement the the Japanies have used it looks like its been emsculated to make air ops diffcult on a small carrier [carriers like the WW2 yorktown had the lifts placed in the center of the deck but i can’t think of a reacent carrier which has that layout]. it dosn’t seem to be desgined with fixed wing in mind.

also the idea of grouping carriers together to combine air groups is to be thought to be very very risky and the reason it was done in the falklands was because their wasn’t any other choise it creats alot more complications with command and control and creats more HVT all not good for a nation which hasn’t used carriers for over 60 years.

if the Japanies were serious about carriers the next genration should be much more impresive.

It derailed?

bad translation i think its training aircraft

how dose the rest of the SA navy look for escorts ect