more from LEG, commenting on the FCAS (nEurone/Taranis)
Design a jet which has to be escorted because it’s not a fighter and you will have to design a fighter which can.
The reality is that small smart bombs are getting to the point where the payload margin difference with light AAMs is very little. Indeed, coming improvements in hunting weapons, lasers, and APS may well make ballistic or especially glide weapons ineffective.
All of which means that if you design around a weapons enclosure of say 2,000lbs overall and 6-10 weapons with rocket boost, you may be able to say:
“Okay, cruise takes everything which doesn’t move and anything which does, deserves a Helfire or better anyway…” Because the long TOFs of ballistic ordnance, when dropped at range, also remove their utility to the primary SEAD role which hunting platforms and UCAVs in particular will need to consider.
With this in mind, there is NO REASON not to look at a persistent supercruise option as platform because removal of the pilot front and the tails behind allows you to sculpt the front extension of a flying wing into a differentially ruled shock spike equivalent for a true supercruise platform.
Getting to the target area fast means that, even if there is a manned escort, you will not have to run 4-6 hours with him/her in transit. And more of your time will be spent, throttled well back, using minimum corefeed on a multicycle engine.
Persistence on the pointy end defines the purpose of UCAVs.
Because of this, I would tend to disagree that there are no eligible cores to work with since you can use ADVENT tech to bring an F124 or an F412 into the necessary power-at-altitude realms to get real 14-16,000lbf of IRT performance (without the A/B). If each end of a modern fighter is worth 5,000lbs that means your 17-20,000lb empty weight fighter can now be down around 10,000lbs and with a fuel load of 8-10,000lbs still manage a .7 T/Wr at takeoff.
No pilot and no radar means a MUCH shallower leading edge profile wihich will dramatically lower your frontal drag signature. By at least half. If you are aeros competitive with an F-104 (34,000lbs takeoff, 17,900lbf thrust) with a much higher T/Wr, you can use a Rutowski profile to burn up to the Mach point that gets you to a single tanking, just outside the fence and then go into hang mode for 10-12hrs before coming out and doing it again to come home.
People forget that a lot of fuel burn is about time. Slow and low (TSFC) doesn’t always match well to fast and high where your cruise point doubles from .75 to 1.4 Mach or so. You literally cover ground faster than you burn gas and you can do it at altitudes where the drag is even less.
In the threat area, the ability to move quickly from threats with an onboard laser to swat inbound missiles equates to long overtakes and swarm-formation ability to handle even saturation attacks as well. Obviously, if you have flights of 2-4 jets with 250KW lasers apiece, you can stack on the bright zot and get S2A/A2A kills a long ways out. Even more importantly however; no manned jet will dare bring a cockpit canopy without 20km of those weapons.
Which means your RFLO, which likely better than any tailed/radar’d/canopied airframe; doesn’t have to be /that/ good. Because most of the threats will be using network optics to track you anyway. Some of them hyperspectral.
The time for a good, subsonic, bomb truck in the manner of a robotic A-7 was the 1990s and 2000s. By 2030, both the patrol area coverage, necessary (A2AD = ROTHR + BASM carrier killer) base standoffs and the threats themselves will all demand some degree of get there quick and leave even quicker ability to fluidly engage and separate at will while tailoring fuel burns to maximize CCD on long sensor tracks a corporate knowledge base in hybrid warfare where few dare to wear uniforms.
I think the real reason that these companies are toe-dipping so cautiously is that they know that the UCAV is despised by the piloted airframe community as a direct threat to union job assurance.
Yet even that will have to take a back seat to economics, when you realize that pilot currency is very perishable and just an F-16 combat mission easily consumers 30,000lbs of gas, if it’s over 500nm radius.
There is no reality check greater than burning 6 years of automobile fuel, per sortie, per airframe and so cuts in both training gas and operational coverage will have to become major drivers.
In 2003 OIF, the SCARS were running around like the proverbial one legged men trying to find kill-box targets worthy of 20-40,000 dollars worth of munitions that were flowing through a tanker pipe, roughly every 20 minutes. To keep the ground forces covered ‘just in case’ required this constant swing of jets but a lot of expensive ordnance was dropped on questionable targets, just because the manned platforms, all dragged up with tanks and bombs, simply don’t have more than about 45 minutes to an hour off the tanker.
UCAVs can change all of this but if they do, if they are /left alone/ because manned systems can’t hold the pace, they will HAVE TO defend themselves. That doesn’t mean HITL will not still rule but ti does mean that new definitions of fight or flight will have to be considered.
1. number of a/c similar to today (64)
2. maintenance done locally
3. stealth a/c is preferred
Seems to me the Finnish would have to compromise on some of their requirements. It will be interesting to see what they decide to do. 30-35 stealthy F-35 that cannot be fully maintained locally, or a higher number of non-stealthy Gripen that can be maintained locally?
Gripen + nEuron offspring would fulfill all those needs
made right across the border, easy to maintain, cheap, and stealth
plus long range, also a big plus for Finland’s borders
Super, so pick the air superiority UCAV they should buy from the long list available….oh wait.
Still many years off, and most likely autonomous air to air capability will not be fielded first. UCAV’s capable of true air to air missions will debut as part of a swarm with a manned aircraft providing the tactical picture, engagement decisions to the “shooter” UCAV, or using the sensors on the UCAV “swarm” to engage from a safe range.
oh please, that’s because no Air Force general in his right mind would buy those, he’d be the most hated person in his military. amongst fighter pilots being asigned to UAV duty is about the worst that can happen to you
just as militaries once didn’t see much use for tanks. or aircraft
and an air superiority UCAV fighter can be made tomorrow, they already made autonomous F-16s, if you can tell a human to engage radar contacts x and y, a computer can do this just as well
in dogfights these things can outmanouver any manned aircraft because there’s no pilot to black out. UAVs are already being equiped with technology that will allow them to detect nearby aircraft at any angle, it won’t be hard to link that tech into targetting and manouvering matrixes
not that it matters, since there will never be another dogfight. or atleast that’s what the people behind the F-35 want us to believe, otherwise they’ve got a huge problem
Sanem, have to hand it to you, you’ve kept the UCAV flame alight for a long time. I think you may get your wish at least partially if Israel attacks Iran. Something tells me UCAVs just may play a role.
I don’t wish for UCAVs really, if manned aircraft could do the job better and cheaper I’d be all for them
but they can’t, and as always it will take men marching slowly towards machine guns to make generals realise they’re doing it wrong
and even then, many a general rather saw his men die than admit his own incompetence
not that any of this matters, it’s just an excuse to put tax payers even more into debt to the banks
a while back there was a university team that showed how you can hack small UAVs, jam their gps etc…
with plenty of media coverage
now here’s a video of some hackers remotely taking over control of a jeep on the highway, turning off its engine, disabling the brakes and what not
http://www.wired.com/2015/07/hackers-remotely-kill-jeep-highway/?mbid=social_fb
so it’s great that governments are worried about small drones flying overhead being hijacked. wouldn’t want one to hit me in the head, that might actually hurt
but I’m a bit more worried about someone turning off the brakes on a car or truck in the middle of the highway. but aparantly that’s no cause for concern
here goes…
1. Flight tests are over two-thirds complete with no show-stoppers… Tests have validated that the airframe is extremely stealthy — nearly undetectable by enemy radar — and that it affords unparalleled situational awareness to pilots.
there has been plenty of historical evidence that weapons programs tend to cover up any problems they might encounter during development. the F-22s biggest problems didn’t become evident until after its introduction, and even then the Air Force tried to cover it up, with pilots forced to risk their careers to defend their own lives
and it’s certainly good to see that the US has acces to the latest Eastern radars, even the once still in development
7. Numerous allies have joined the F-35 program. And now other countries are signing up, including Israel, Japan and South Korea.
and Canada has delayed the decision to actually proceed with the F-35 purchase, while Australia has cancelled its order of F-35B’s
Italy and Spain are in horribly financial situations, Denmark and the Netherlands aren’t really doing much better. be sure that a multi-billion foreign fighter purchase will be the first thing to go if and when budgets keep contracting
Japan is having a similar problem, with the F-35 price in Yen exploding, and their economy on the brink of disaster
ps the US is paying for those Israeli F-35s
9. As more and more pilots actually fly the plane though, the logic of its design and features is becoming obvious.
I posted a video of a pilot talking about the helmet the other day, one of the first real pieces of feedback we’ve gotten on what is one of the most important pilot aids
he doesn’t seem very impressed, he points out that the projected DAS image is low quality, and that the HUD only appears when looking forward. he says he still prefers using his eyes to look around and judge distances
this isn’t surprising considering this technology is already over a decade old, and based on outdated concepts
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/12/26/newest-u-s-stealth-fighter-10-years-behind-older-jets.html
a 2025 smartphone in a 45 year old Mig 29 will probably be more useful than the late 1990’s tech the F-35 will field by then
the smartphone will be wirelessly connected to a number of cheap 360 degree camera’s attached all over the Mig, fuse these images and project them onto a pair of simpel holographic glasses that give the Mig pilot a detailed long range 360 degree line of sight all around the aircraft, against ground, sea and air targets
the phone will automatcially and flawlessly recognise any contacts by type and country identification, and relay this data to the Mig’s weapons (missiles, guided guns or lasers) and fire them autonomously if the pilot gives the order to engage
and that phone, holographic glasses and camera’s you’ll be able to buy online for a just a few hundred Yuan, or just print them out yourself
That doesn’t mean the program will encounter no further setbacks, but what it does signal is that the F-35 effort is in better shape today than ever before — which is a good thing, because there is no ”Plane B” waiting in the wings.
the Navy has a plan B (F-18E/F) and C (UCLASS)
they killed the F-111. you can be sure they’ll kill the F-35C if they can
You are spot on and FOI + SAAB agrees that the cheapest way to beat stealth is by drones.
What is holding back projects like this is not the arms manuacturers but politics and funding.
interesting stuff, thanks for sharing
I don’t think swing wing is a good idea, not with today’s technology (NASA is working on morphing wings I believe)
but I also don’t think speed is a must have, I’m guessing it requires a different engine and outlet, which will complicate the aircraft. and while it’s nice to have that extra speed when launching missiles, I think you can do without when you have cheap stealth
on the politics of things, yeah, I also noticed that the USAF talked quite a bit about air combat UAVs until around the time they shut down J-UCAS, ever since no one seems to even acknowledge that such a thing is possible
the industry seems to be hinting at it at best
back to the F-35, here’s a pilot talking about the new helmet
http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/f-35-pilot-seems-unimpressed-with-jets-x-ray-like-visio-1717500325
I’m quite disapointed, the DAS system for one sounds rather poor, at least for spotting a target
also it seems you can’t just project a rear-view of the F-35 while looking forward, like a digital rear view mirror. that sucks
and finally he compares cockpit visibility of the F-35 with the F-16 and F-22, saying that they are designed for air superiority, while the F-35 is not
orignal article
https://medium.com/war-is-boring/no-the-f-35-can-t-fight-at-long-range-either-5508913252dd
it is certainly more logical to turn on a powerful long range radar, and let $20 million UCAVs sneak into missile range and attack/risk getting shot down
plus those UCAVs can risk getting WVR to get a visual confirmation of the target. as has now been clearly established, that’s a really bad idea with an F-35. or better yet a pair of them, since they never go in alone
why risk $200 million + pilots for a job which a $20 million UCAV can do better. fill it with short ranged missiles and it’ll be a major threat against even the most advanced manned fighters
and before anyone tells me it can’t be done, the Avenger proves that you can build a stealth jet engined UAV for less than $20 million, which has enough internal room to carry at the very least two AMRAAMs
General Atomics Avenger
Unit cost $12 million to $15 million
“…design includes stealth features such as internal weapons storage, and an S-shaped exhaust for reduced heat and radar signature.”
“Internal weapons bay, 3,000 pounds (1,400 kg) capacity. Capable of carrying (…) GBU-24 Paveway III bombs.”
GBU-24 Paveway III
Weight 1,050 kg
Length 4.39 m
Diameter 460 millimetres
AIM-120 AMRAAM
Weight 152 kg
Length 3.7 m
Diameter 180 mm
AIM-9X Block II
Weight 85.28 kg
Length 3.02 m
Diameter 127 mm
What UCAV’s? Yeah, I can already see reapers launching sidewinders at Su-30’s and MiG-29’s. That’s going to end well.
F-35 BVR offensive capability: stealth, radar/offboard target data input + AMRAAM, price $110+ million
UCAV offensive capability: stealth, radar/offboard target data input + AMRAAM, price $20 million? (the stealthy, jet engined Predator C is estimated to cost $15 million)
unless you think it’s a good idea to send outdated, undergunned prop aircraft into modern air combat
in that case, maybe the Finns can get their old Messerschmitts out of the museum
so it has been confirmed that the F-35 is not a dogfighter, far from it, because “it doesn’t need to be”. as I’ve long predicted
so if the Finnish Air Force wants a dogfighter, the F-35 is not an option. if dogfighting is not a priority, then they might as well go with UCAVs
UK Military Video Shows ISIS Armored Vehicle Destroyed By RAF Reaper Drone With Hellfire Missile.
this shows a number of things:
– the continued frontline usefulness of UAVs, even after Afghanistan (many people here have told me they’d be pretty much useless once that mission ended)
– the need for non-US countries to arm their UAVs
– the fact that armed UAV presence will quickly shut down any ISIS operations. when your trucks are being blow up by an unseen enemy which you cannot attack, you park your vehicle and run for it
– and all this at a fraction of the cost of any manned fighter jet, with greatly superior endurance and no pilot at risk
regarding career promotion, this have been acknowledged recently with some structural modification in career nominations (if I do remind well).
You analysis otherwise is spot-on. But be patient, We still live the age of the 1st++ Gen 😉
well, it shows how WWI generals could be some dumb as to march their men at slow pace into machine gun fire
some people don’t want to accept technology, because it questions their skills and/or their position
a lot of allied lives would have probably been saved if the USAF had gotten onto the UAV train earlier and more seriously
but they prefer intercepting Russian recon planes and playing dogfight in gold-plated jets
rather than sit behind a computer screen on the ground and actually make a difference. god forbid all that tax money were to be spent efficiently (you can get about 10 Reapers for the price of a single F-35)
speaking of the F-35, seems Australia won’t be getting the F-35B
http://defensetech.org/2015/07/10/australian-navy-cancels-order-for-the-f-35b-joint-strike-fighter/#more-25303
as I’ve long argued, there is a real demand for a STOVL (tailsitter) UCAV design
it wouldn’t have to be big or anything, just an oversized re-usable missile that can bring missiles and bombs into target range
USAF forced to cut UAV flights per day from 65 to 60 on pilot shortage
http://www.uasvision.com/2015/07/09/stress-drives-off-drone-operators-air-force-cuts-flights/#more-37692
as I’ve long said, the USAF drone program is a full of systemic faults
– the insistance that all UAV operators be qualified pilots. the US Army has long proven that this is not necessary
– not further automating its Predators and Reapers, for example the take-off and landing phase, but also most of the flying itself. Global Hawks have had this ability since the beginning, and this greatly reduces the need for pilot oversight. the ability to control multiple UAVs by one operator has long existed, but the USAF has failed to push this delevopment
– the introduction of miniature amunitions. most weapons used today are too powerful and expensive for the targets they’re used against, causing more collateral damage and limiting the operators’ choices
– the introduction of jet-engined UAVs, like the Predator C Avenger. jet engines allow for reaching the target zone faster, and thus requires less human effort. also newer models will be more autonomous, further reducing the operator’s workload
– UAV pilot recognition. while most regular pilots spend their time training, and on missions for a limited time, UAV pilots are at the forefront every day, they execute most of the attacks and watch over the most ground troops. they should be treated as the elite of the air force, instead they’re treated as outcasts, with limited pay and career opportunities. this even though UAV operators probably have far more combat experience on average than any regular pilots, so they should be paid the most and promoted the fastest
F-16 collides with Cessna, 2 dead
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/07/07/us-usa-south-carolina-crash-idUSKCN0PH1V620150707
UAVs aren’t allowed to fly in shared air space, “because it’s unsafe”. talk about hypocrisy
once they get automated avoidance systems, they’ll be much safer than any manned aircraft
Geez, if these UCAVs are the ultimate answer then why is Russia investing in the T-50 and China in the J-20? Sorry, but “cheap” UCAVs aren’t the aerial analogues of IEDs, especially in a non-permissive environment.
why did the Allies refuse the concept of Blitzkrieg?
why did the US Army send M-16s without testing if they’d actually work in the field?
why did the USAF bet the hosue on the F-111?
you seem to be assuming that generals aren’t humans who make mistakes, and that they don’t choose weapon systems based on what consultant role they will get when they retire
UAVs have huge potential in air combat. the fact that this hasn’t even been tested says it all
Yes, all these incredibly cheap UCAV’s what can do anything what current fighters can. Let’s come back to this when first one flies with radar and capability to kill current generation manned fighters… while costing less than 50 million. I still haven’t seen this amazing AI what can do dog fighting and so many other things… no doubt it’s also very cheap & simple to code.
Take a look how much they are wrestling with codes on F-35 and you seriously think it’s easier for any real UCAV what needs to do combat maneuvers on it’s own, etc?
in long range air combat, sure. it’s a matter of someone spotting the target (be it AWACS, satellite, forward aircraft…) and relaying the target data. then it comes down to pumping missiles at the target
really just the same principle of any SAM system or the F-22 and F-35: detect, engage, keep shooting until its down
and then UAVs and UCAVs have the natural advantage, because they’re cheaper and relatively expandable
you see the same thing with tanks: they keep getting better, but so do anti-tank weapons
so when a country spends years and millions to develop a new tank, a few years later another country brings out its latest infantry based RPG
to the point where well equiped infantry can destroy the latest multi-million Dollar tank with ease and at low cost
it becomes even worse when you look at IEDs blowing up expensive Humvees
to compare that to fighter jets, if a cheap UCAV or UAV with optical missiles can sneak up on, or swarm a $150 million F-22 or F-35, they can perfectly well shoot them down
the UAV might not be much, but it’s just there to bring the missile within range
I’d bet the latest Python missile can already take out any stealth aircraft. what platform you launch it from becomes largely irrelevant
an on AI, the F-22s hardware and software is already ancient compared to the F-35s
in the same way, the F-35s tech is already old compared to some of the latest stuff out there, because it’s based on 90’s tech
that’s like comparing the best 90’s phone to the latest 2015 smartphone. talk about emberassing
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/12/26/newest-u-s-stealth-fighter-10-years-behind-older-jets.html
Realistically, only China will have the resources to build a VLO plane at the level of the F-35; the others (including Russia) will not. And China may have the resources but so far seems not to have the capabilities. And if there is no VLO platform on “the other side” the F-35 reigns supreme. A 4.5 gen fighter will probably never get close to the F-35, making the dogfighting capabilities irrelevant.
who needs F-35 clones when you can make UCAVs?

they don’t even need to be very stealthy, if you can keep the price low enough ($15-$25 million). in a conflict the air will be full of radar jamming, so any radar effectiveness will be reduced
then you basically have an intelligent, stealthy long range flying SAM battery
spread them out over an area, and program to use passive sensors to detect enemy aircraft or ground/sea targets of opportunity
communicate via satellite or chained radio signals, almost impossible to detect, jam or intercept
equip them with medium range missiles for attack and short ranged missiles that can shoot down enemy missiles, giving them the reach to hit an F-35 or even an F-22, and making them an extremely hard target for long range AMRAAM shots
at that point the F-35 will have to chase these UCAVs, and they’ll need to fire multiple AMRAAMs to shoot just one down
by doing so they expose themselves to counter-attacks by other UCAVs or hunter-killer J-20s/T-50s that’ll use the UCAVs as bait. at a 5 UCAVs vs 1 F-35 cost rate, not counting the pilot
this also works with non-stealthy UAVs, basically long range MALDS, these can be made very cheap
against an F-22 it would be harder to pull off because it operates faster and at a higher altitude