Winged_Trident:rolleyes:
what was that for?
Winged_TridentAnyone comparing P17 Shivalik with China’s Type 054A Jiangkai 2 must keep in mind that the two ships belong to different class with P17 being about 1500 tons heavier.
How can we not compare it? Comparison will happen even if we do not want to happen. Both ships have similarity even in pictures. Also not that the 1500 ton lighter 054A carrier 32 Shtil-I missiles compared to P-17, though P-17 will surely get the same missile loadout in the next ship or in the next batch.
The real difference is in the propulsion of these platforms. Compared to P17, 054A is greately underpowered with just four 16 PA6V-280 STC diesel engines in CODAD arrangement. I greately doubt 054A can have a speed in access of 20-22 knots thus making it a true patrol frigate and not suitable for carrier escort (nothing surprising, PRC doesnt have AC as yet).
P17 on its LM2500 turbines has more than twice the power at its disposal.
20-22 knots or you meant 30-32 knots?
Winged_TridentYou’re entitled your opinions. IMHO, she’ll use Anti-ship Club, making her an all-rounder, with ASW emphasis. A role at which she will do fine, compared to eg. Type 054A (which will be part of PLAN CBG escort).
She is an all-rounder, no doubt. But grouping small all-rounders like these will increase the burden on logistics and replinishment for a CBG and that was the point i was trying to make all along. Instead of having these smaller ships, better have 4-8 P-15A class destroyers as escorts. Maybe we stop it at that?
btw, don’t you think that the smaller 054A in its current form having 32 Shtil-I missiles is better in air-defence? Even though ASW may not be comparable to the P17.
You don’t have 12-13 ships escorting each carrier, but you need that number in order to be able to have each escorted by 4-6 ships at any given time. Which means the there will be 7-8 ships around to pick up other tasks, provided they are not in dock or in transit to/from the operations area.
When u were pulling up all the ships I though u wanted to depute all of them for CBG escorts….
In view of age, I expect not all 5 Kashins will be modernized and afaik the VL installation for Brahmos is installed on just 1 and for trial purposes only.
The most costeffective upgrades are simple, while adding fire power and surviability (i.e. inclined Brahmos and VL Barak, plus existing systems modernization)
But I think Kashins will only be retired stating 2020 and till then gving her a decent upgrade with Brahmos & Shtil woud have given us 5 additional stop-gap fighting platform. Such an air-defence umbrella wud have helped them to be employed effictively as escorts for P-25 & P25A class of corvettes in strike missions.
5 numbers is not an irrevelant number for a navy whose total count on all major warships total just 32, including those on order and those which lack any proper area air-defence system.
Winged_TridentReally? “As for ur remark of less modern shell…”
seems like u missed reading it clearly…here is what u said and what I replied.
to which a 76mm Oto contributes more than a heavier, slower training and firing Russian 100mm, the munitions of which are probably also less modern and effective in AA-role than those of the Oto 76.
In the above u were saying abt the advantage of the smaller 76mm gun w.r.t to the higher caliber 100mm and also mentioning abt the munitions used. And I replied
76mm do have higher rate than 100mm, and Russians do have their 76mm with 120rds/min rate of fire as well.
Here I never spoke abt the 76mm munition rather its the 76mm gun with 120rds/min that I was talking abt. I though u wud understand that I was pointing out the 76mm AK176 even though i did not mention it specifically. After that I said this about the munition….
As for ur remark of less modern shell, I don’t think its something that can’t be procured from other sources…
It was for ur view that Russia does not have the wide variety of munitions like the OTO to which I said that the munitions are something that can be procured from other sources…
hope it gets clear now. 🙂
Winged_TridentKa-56 “Wasp” helicopter: the smallest passenger helicopter in the world that could carry one person and can be folded in the tube that can be carried also by one person.
Sci-fi in action:
Thats really interesting… is that wasp still alive or got packed up fully?
Winged_TridentSorry, but what else should they be deputed for? Land attack? plz. :rolleyes:
I think its basically jack of all trades and master of none. ASW is a strong point, but still have to chose between ASW & Anti-Ship Klub variants. Btw, what do u think its exceptionally good in?
You got 3 P15 with 3 P15A on the way. You got 3 Talwar, with 3 on the way. You got 3 P17 on the way, with a tender out for the subsequent – propoably more AAW oriented – batch.
i.e operational 7 + to be commisioned 8, total 15 ships.
And the best these ships have is 40-45Km range missile.
P15, Talwar and P17 share by and large the same main SAM and all contribute to the umbrella at this point. That’s 9 ships. P15A and likely also P17A will have longer ranged SAMs and will be relied on more in future. That’s 6+ ships.
again operational 7 + to be commisioned 8. Lets keep aside the P17A, hope u know how good the Indian decision making process and project management is.
Considering the need to cover at least 1 and maybe 2 CBGs, that would seem sufficient for AAAW needs.
So we have 15 ships to cover 2 CBG (by 2015 definetely)
To this you can at 3 Brahmaputra and 3 upgraded Godavari class frigates P28 ASW corvettes and maybe even Kora/Kukhri ASuW corvettes as possible CBG escort forces.
Ok fine…. added 6 more ASW frigates and 6 ASuW pocket destroyers.
Finally that gives us a figure of 27 ships thats needed for 2 CBGs.
1) Now whats to left to defend the large maritime area and the East coast and other places???
2) How many tanker/replinishment ships will Indian Navy need to feed all those 27 ships needed to escort an already demanding carrier??
3) where is the reserve?? Or lets consider that Indian Navy have 100% availablity.
It can be said that such a collection may only be required during an operational period, but then if this is the case at war….better avoid it. Indian Naby will find it real hard to sustain a campaign with this “collection of the available.” :diablo:
Whatz left after all those deputation to the CBG maybe 5 grandpas, who are getting some fine teeths.
It would have been better if those 5 Kashins were given a proper Air-defence installation at the aft in the place of the Brahmos. 4-8 Brahmos at the front was good enough and the aft cud have been stuffed with 48 Shtil or longer range 9M96E2. JMT
There is no russian equivalent for the Italian multipurpose ammo as yet.
I was talking abt the equivalent Russian 76mm Ak176 with 120rds/min rate of fire not the ammo.
Winged_TridentStrange that you questioned, ‘whats she good for?’ if you had indeed considered the points I mentioned. Or do you believe ASW and ASuW to not be important warfighting areas for carrier escorts? Sure, there should be some escorts with an area AAW capability, but not having area AAW doesn’t make the P17 any less suitable as a carrier escort if area AAW is not it’s responsibility. The P15B will take care of that.
my actual reply was w.r.t to the mention of P-17 being CBG escorts…..and area air-defence was topping my mind when CBG escorts was mentioned, hence my doubts. I never said ASW or anti-shpping wasn’t important….
But as u said, P-17s will have ASW & anti-shipping roles and if at all P-17s are going to be the escorts, these will be their primary roles which means P15A will be required to give air-defence. So how much ships can we actually allot as CBG escorts??
Winged_TridentMainly ASW of course. And in order to do that credibly, she also has to have sufficient AAW self protection capability, to which a 76mm Oto contributes more than a heavier, slower training and firing Russian 100mm, the munitions of which are probably also less modern and effective in AA-role than those of the Oto 76.
point taken, when u first talked abt escort air-defence was topping my mind. But, do u really think that IN have that much fleet strength to have both P-17 & P-15A to give escorts to CBG? Because, P-17 simply won’t be able to provide the air-cover and a larger combatant like P-15A is required. IN is really very short on primary combatants and if all the available are deputed to CBG escorts then nothing will be left…
76mm do have higher rate than 100mm, and Russians do have their 76mm with 120rds/min rate of fire as well. As for ur remark of less modern shell, I don’t think its something that can’t be procured from other sources…
Winged_TridentWas a not a good day for ISRO even though many parts of India are in festive mood. GSLV-D3 flight couldn’t do it this time…..
Today’s flight itself was a big achievement as Dr.Radhakrishnan said…… its 18 years of hard work that went into todays flight and the preliminary reports suggest that main cryogenic engine got ignited but the two smaller vernier engines did not raise to the occation and the vehicle lost its stablity and tumbled…..next launch is going to be after 1 year.
Hard work of all those involved that went into the GSLV-D3 won’t be forgotten. All the BEST for next flight! 🙂
Winged_TridentAll from: http://www.morinsys.ru/index.php (see under ‘products’)
Good find!
But I don’t see any difference in the sites, they both are the same. Do u find any difference other than the web address? 😉
Winged_TridentArming Containers Ships With Anti-Ship Missiles
A Russian firm is marketing a version of the Klub cruise missile that can be carried in a 40 foot shipping container. The launcher and the missile have to slide out of the container before firing, thus limiting where it can be placed on a ship, particularly your typical container ship. But you could get two or three of these shipping container Klubs on most cargo ships, turning the vessel into warship. Full Story
Winged_Tridentsome larger image from Agat brochure….
Winged_TridentWell new systems here…….. very impressive.
Club-K Container Missile System
Include high quality video ~186MB
Club-U Modular Missile System
Truly impresseive concept of Krivak class…..see below picture
Ship general-purpose firing complex
Include high quality video ~ 142MB
Club-M Coastal Missile System
Include high quality video ~148.25MB
some small pictures from the site….
Winged_TridentThe P17 actually seems like a good all purpose frigate. It takes more than SAMs to be considered a good CBG escort. It’s true that it’s hard kill suite is slightly compromised in terms of rate of fire due to its one-armed launcher, and it’s missile capacity of 24 Shtils are a little on the low side, but it’s 32 Baraks with 2 channels usuable on each side as well as 2 AK-630s make for a fairly robust multi-layer hard kill system. What’s important to note too is that it has a long range radar – and as far it being a battlegroup escort goes, that may enable it to vector fighters from the carrier, in effect making fighters the first line of its defenses.
Another thing going for it is that it has hangar space for 2 helis. That gives it a big advantage over many other frigates with only 1 heli in areas such as anti-surface warfare and anti-sub warfare.
considered that points, but a carrier must have escorts with longer ranged missiles and thats important. But considering that Pakistan doesn’t have any anti-ship missiles (sub or surface ship based) that have more than 50Km, the current situation might be Ok. But the scene changes when the opponents have longer ranged anti-ship missiles. Its always good to have longer ranged missiles so that if at all the adversary sneaks in the missile-carrier can be taken-oot w/o scrambling the fighters. And opponents sneaks in when one is least prepared and thats when the longer-ranged missiles need will be felt the most.
Even if VLS is introduced, its not going to be around 32-36 missiles…..so for CBG escorts atleast a P15A class of destroyers is required or a P-17 class with atleast 48 missiles including longer-ranged ones.
Winged_TridentBesides, her main role will be carrier battle group escort (rather than land attack vessel)
are u mentioning the P-17 class?? ….. but for the CBG escort role, she got very few medium-ranged missiles and lack any long-ranged missiles. So the question arise, whats she good for? With a smaller caliber 76mm, naval GFS is’t much to talk abt either.
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