It’s still going to take an IRST a long time to do a large volume search at max ranges compared to a radar, as that’s more akin to looking through a straw.
Wrightwing, the range is dependent on dwelling time, just like in radar’s case.
The differences may occur in seeker sensitivity, but those can be found among radars, as well.
Your point is misplaced.
If the pilot knows a target is likely in a certain area, then the search can be much more efficient.
Exactly the same goes for radar.
As said before, you have serious misconceptions about aircraft (sensors in this particular case), which would be wise for you to deal with.
Discussing 1on1 situation is pointless. Aircrafts aren’t flying alone, but at least in pairs.
In 2on2 situation one of the Raptors could be an ‘eye’ – using radar to track Rafales and distracting attention from another one – ‘shooter’. So, the shooter will fly silently, and might use high speed (supercruise) and altitude advantage to circle around Rafales and place himself on the best position to fire AMRAAMs.
Exactly, which makes a pair of IRST equipped fighters even more dangerous, due the ability to calculate distance for a shot faster and more accurate.
As for the tactics you’ve described, it’s nothing new and fighters use a high watcher/low shooter (hiding in the grass), for…ever.
…but there’ve been instances where a single Raptor w/ simulated -9Ms took on 3 F-16s w/ JHMCS, and simulated -9Xs, and still managed to kill them all.
In close combat?
I’m aware that they scan. They have much narrower fields of view as the range increases though, so to say X has the capability to detect something at Y km/nm, doesn’t tell the whole story. That just means that if they happen to be looking in the right place, they have a reasonable likelihood of spotting a target. If they aren’t aware that they need to look in a certain sector, that could mean a pretty lengthy time before detection occurred(IF it occurred).
And radar doesn’t?
Just examine the beam towards the maximum range, for even as high as 50-60dB gain MSA antennas, or AESA’s clipped beams.
IRST works very much like an MSA radar and can permanently search for IR sources, if set to do so.
So no, IRST can actively search for targets, just like the radar does and it doesn’t need to hope for a fluke.
IRST search sensor doesn’t change resolution while scanning, but larger volumes scans reduce dwelling time and so reduce chances of detecting the target, exactly the same way as with any radar system.
If the Rafale was using L16, he’d give his position away to the Raptor.
No, it won’t.
F22 has no means of knowing at what power setting, foreign L16 operates and might get direction, at best.
The OSF would only help if he knew where in the sky to look.
Modern IRSTs (PIRATE and I guess OSF) work similar to radar, so “where to look?” is a non-existing argument.
The Su-27 shows a very well designed LERX; the F-18E a design that was hastled by economic considerations resulting in a aircraft with the adverse features of LERXes
Kiwi, do you know why F16 and F18 have LERX, in the first place?
f-22 in alaska 100+ to nil wasnt it ?
Early in the 2009, a pair of EFs “took out” two flights of F15s (7:0).
Repeat that exercise 15 times and you’ll get EF’s 100:0 kill ratio against F15 as well, but which no one in the right mind can take seriously (a few present posters, obviously excluded).
Kiwi, if a plane does ~30°/sec ITR at SL (and F22 does, after which it slips to PS after a couple of seconds, while maintaining AB), it can’t do 28°/sec STR at 20k ft, no matter what anybody says. 😉
This is particularly true, if that same plane constantly exhibits 20 sec circle at SL, with a loads of vertices, even during comparatively low humidity conditions.
This is where aerodynamic knowledge helps (keeps you away from believing and makes you know, or at least “healthy” skeptic :D).
Yefim Gordon`s book MiG-29 and a PDF title Rafale versus Typhoon
http://www.calf.cn/attachment.php?aid=209172 page 6 gives you the turn rates at sea level and 50% fuel basicly combat weight of both Rafale and Typhoon.
F-22`s STR from a red flag lecture on youtube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2siH9W5P4E&feature=related
Well, Rafale vs. Typhoon data have been calculated by a third party observer (like we, here) most probably based on airshow displays.
Curious, how you go after 28°/sec for F22 (at 20k ft – :D), which is about the best ITR, F22 managed to display at SL without weapons and with questionable fuel load, while unable to do a circle under 20 sec (18°/sec STR), compared to Rafale/EF which routinely do it in 15/16 sec, in similar conditions.
The Eurofighter`s STR of 23.3 deg/s at seal level is lower than the MiG-29C`s 23.5deg/s at 3000 meters and 50% of weight why?
the MiG-29C is stable longitudinally and flying higher
Rafale will do 23.9 deg/s at sea level too in combat weight of 50% weight
the Eurofighter STR at 3000 meters is 22deg/s Rafale must have similar figures
The MiG-29M`s sustained turn rate at 3000 meters and combat weight is 22.8 deg/s both MiG-29M and MiG-29C must have higher STR at sea level.
The Cobra can be used as the Hook and bell in combat by the Su-27.
F-22 can get 28 deg/s STR.
The F-22 will achieve that thanks to better lift/drag ratio and higher TWR
Out of curiosity, where did you get all those figures from (particularly the ones at altitudes)?
Does anyone know why the F-35B keeps the weapon bay doors open doing stovl landings? was that just for testing? or is there something to this?
Possibly, for the same reason why the Harrier uses ventral air dams.
Were F-117s certified to drop Durandals?
Yes well, Durandal was in US arsenal and it’s ballistic profile was known to US armorers, so there was really no problem to clear the weapon for the aircraft (F117 has a bomb computer).
Anyway, since it’s certified for free-fall bombs, it most certainly can carry Durandal.
What stopped USAF to integrate Durandal into F117’s arsenal, if F117 was so good in busting “heavily fortified” (LOL, read a bit about F117’s targets in GW1) targets?
I’m sure RAF wouldn’t mind leaving, most heavily defended objects (airfields) to USAF then, would it?
C2 nodes in and around Baghdad, etc…, which had greater numbers of SAMs/AAA defending.
Really? Any figures on this?
And one more thing I forgot to address before.
What stopped USAF to stick at least a pair of Duranadals into each bay and go for the runway?
Any commanding officer that would task his F-22 crews to fly in at 200 feet is a moron why go down to 200 feet when you can travel at 50K+ feet and fire weapons from 100 or so miles away? why purposely get in detection range?
Because F22 CAN NOT take out a runway from 100 nm away (nor can from 200ft for that matter), but the thing is some weapons demand a certain attack profiles, because of construction limitations.
1st you claim I don’t know what I’m talking about by saying the tactic is near obsolete now your agreeing with me. which is it? Do Currently deployed U.S. forces use Durandal today?
My research tells me we don’t even have them in inventory anymore.
If you can show me 5th generation types that will use Durandal and low level penetration tactics I will shut up. BUT UNTIL then I stand by my point.
Look, the thing with runway busting is, it needs to be very accurate and the weapon needs a very precise INS to correctly align itself with a runway’s axis, or otherwise the damage will be insignificant, as opposed to “bunker busting”, the one thing F117 can do, where the bomb is going for a point target.
Normally, even planes don’t have INS precise enough to correctly align themselves after as little as 15 minutes of autonomous flight, hence ILS radio beacons.
New weapons with GPS correction mechanisms will mitigate this inaccuracy, but only to a degree and still the plane itself is the most accurate delivery system.
So, someone will eventually have to go in and “drop the bombs” and as always, 200ft and highest possible speed will be a way to go.
Now, I’m talking about freefalling and self-propelled runway penetrators like various types bomblets and Durandal respectively, which are so far the only way to go (AFAIK), unless you’re willing to go Soviet way and nail a tacnuke into the airfield.
OK so Ill bite:
Since its a valid tactic for all aircraft types, then you would have no problem if you had command of F-22, B-2, or F-35 right?
Lets send an F-22 2 hundred feet off the deck and have them surprise the IADS! who cares if your exposing a 150 million plus aircraft to small arms fire. its a valid tactic. Do I have a point or not?
Tactics depend on weapons at hand.
In 1991, you had to use Durandal or fixed dispersers to take out the runway.
Today dispersers are selfpropelled, so there’s no need for a plane to go in, although the accuracy can still be an issue.
However, even launched dispersers have the best chance of piercing IADS, when flying NOE and that’s why you won’t see a Tomahawk flying at 15k ft.
As for your remark about exposing F22/35, well the thing is no one wants to be exposed when the bullets are whistling around, but then you can’t win a battle, can you?
Even so an F22 at 200ft, has much better chances of surviving IADS than at 15k ft, at least during the first pass.
However, if a plane can’t withstand trash-fire, it has no business in such type of tasks, anyway.
The F-117s had targets that were even more heavily defended…
Really? Like what, for example?
..like I said before the tactic is valid but more risky. However I don’t see the tactic used much for F-35,F-22
B-2, T-50 ect. And Like I mentioned before I’m not even sure if id try this with out escort jammers. Modern IADS are just so lethal. If Im worng then I will stand down and stand corrected. But surely you see my point right?
Actually you claimed low level attack is a Cold War relic and it isn’t.
Moreover, such tactics is the only one available, in runway busting type tasks, since no one can fire Durandal or bomblets from 15k ft and expect to hit anything.
One can only speculate how’d F15E or other models fare, but obviously so good that Torandos were tasked with that particular airfield attack.
As for modern IADS, if given small enough time to react, it’s harmless like any other system.
This is what are low level attack meant to do.
Why risk getting a fighter Jock Killed when you have stealth aircraft!?
So why F117s didn’t bust that airfield, then?
The point was that the British went to Medium altitude…
When?