The Tornado IDS was most certainly not designed for deep penetration strike into Soviet airspace it didn’t have the range apart from anything else.

MRCA or Tornado as it came to be known was designed to be a multi role strike aircraft operating at low level within the FEBA. It did have a limited nuclear capability but not for use against priority targets deep within Soviet airspace. The nukes would of been used against forward airfields and tank formations breking through NATO defences in Germany (God Forbid!).

Tornado most certainly HAS been designed for deep strike of high priority targets within Soviet (or other hostile) airspace, hence the name IDS. “Deep strike” has to be appreciated through tactical sense, of course.
Tornado WAS the fastest combat aircraft at sea level back in ’83 (not sure for later period) with 1480 km/h, with very moderate T/W ratio which, apart from very high lift VG wing and wing devices is another tribute to its aerodynamics.
Tornado had the capability to, apart from carrying bomblet/minelet dispersers, cluster bombs and Durandal penetrators, deliver tactical yield nuclear weapons on high priority targets like airfields, command posts, SAM and tactical missile sites.
To accomplish this Tornado was given a TFR, which enabled extremely low penetration of enemy airspace (to avoid enemy’s SAM curtain) and GMR which enabled the hit of the target in the first pass in all weather conditions.
LATER, Tornado got cleared for Maverick, AS missiles, Wild Weasel role, etc…

So, before anyone starts to point out F111, consider that F111 is another class and although their roles may occasionally overlap, those two are different designs.

Cheers, Cola

That price included weapons, spares, training, support for a few years & notional (because it’s paid by the Austrian Ministry of Defence to the Austrian Treasury) interest. The unit price for the aircraft was 62 mn euros.

Don’t forget, Eurofighter GmbH reworked complete Zeltweg airport’s infrastructure to accommodate Eufi. It’s an enormous investment…

The same team offered a >>>>!!!!100%!!!!<<<< offset program to Croatia, :eek:. Ok, it wasn’t officially verified, but close enough. It means, Croatia gets Eufis for FREE :D, in the end…Ok, German gvt. has always been beneficially inclined towards Croatia, hence the offer…Not even Sweds with their well known (huge percentage) Gripen offset haven’t come close.

Cheers, Cola

I always thought “generations” were stupid. And 5th generation is really just another word for “it’s from LockMart!”. So apparently Boeing is now trying to get itself associated with the “6th gen”. Ridiculous…

My point exactly.

Just one example. Tornado has being designed for deep penetrations into Soviet airspace at low level, WITHOUT support and possible delivery of nuclear weapons on high priority targets…
I’ve been “out of a loop” in terms of modern aircraft for some time now, but I’m pretty sure no one built a plane more capable in its class, for the same role.
So, Tornado, despite being 3rd (or I don’t know which) generation, is still the most capable deep strike aircraft in the world, whether, it’s the current “name of the game”, or not.

Just take 2003 and air assaults on Iraqi airfield. Who did it? Tornado, while all those “x generation”, super, mega, ultra, twin-turbo fighter, sit on the ground waiting for an “old bucket” to clear the way…

Cheers, Cola

…and one more thing needs to be remembered…

I’m not an economist, so I’m not gonna get into figures, but my point will be clear.
USA’s debt toward other world countries permanently grows. Currently the leader is China with 24,07% of foreign debt. The absurd in dealing with USA is the fact that by buying F35, you actually finance the plane (new Chinese fighters), the F35 has been designed to fight against!!!

…and they call it global trading…

Cheers, Cola

Well, I apologize if I caused any trouble…

However, although I’m not a politician and I don’t like politics, can’t help but notice the forum is being loaded with politics, all the way down to weapon systems.

What I’ve tried to say, savion, and what you obviously didn’t understand (and it’s ok, if you never saw a Turkish sabre>parable!), is that Europe has always been a “stepmother” to border nations. When I said about highway, I meant, we should have made a deal with Turks and let them pass through and sack the Wienna and other European cities and they’d probably leave us alone<. However, we didn’t! and therefore lost a cream of our society. Afterwards, Europe failed to recognize our efforts and even executed some of our leading generals and nobles.

Do, I even need to mention 1991-1995!? and Europe’s role in that war…

So, noone really has to answer or comment on this post, it’s all pretty clear. All I’m saying is that I understand Aspis and the position the Greece is in, for the past 35 years…

As for Eufi, news, last I heard is that Greece indefinetly postponed it’s order on Eufi, due the costs of Summer Olympics in Atena and since than it’s been pretty quiet.

A local aeronautical magazine’s reporters have been to Greece last Fall and made an excellent report on that issue.
As it turns out, Greece interceptors have almost 1 interception each day!!! and the intruders are in 100% Turks (F-16s mostly). It has never been explicitly said, but one of Greece pilots (all remained anonymous) more than clearly hinted that on a certain degree if those interceptions, LIVE ROUNDS have been fired on both sides!
So much about NATO coherency, peace and love between nations, right?
You don’t need to have much imagination to conclude, what level of stress this inducts in Greece pilots flying CAP missions. Since air patrol (CAP) is essentially a defensive task, you get to draw “forced” moves, fight on your enemy’s terms and when live missiles are flying…Ok, the rest should, really, be clear now…

So, judging by behavior of some NATO PARTNERS!, I think Greece should get the best possible interceptor, it can get her hands on…In my opinion, that would be Eufi, as much as for technical (performance), as for political reasons too. That way, the Germans, arguably the only more/less politically consistent nation (in the vicinity), would hopefully get to stop (or begin stopping) autocracy, displayed by a certain superpower, which I won’t name now, in mixing in local affairs of the states in the region (and around the world), therefore (intentionally?) maintaining neuralgic zone, which in turn keeps the price of the weapons systems, high.

I hope, this was clear enough and if not, oh well…

Cheers, Cola

Yes, that’s precisely why I asked. Glad to see there are still some ppl with common sense here 😉
It is really funny to see how people, even head of the states, find comfort in advertisment provided by certain manufacturers and “feel safe, knowing the latest gen aircraft are protecting them” 😀
It really isn’t that important what exactly those planes can do as long as they’re latest gen.

It would be funny, if it wasn’t tragic.

Cheers guys, Cola

Halo,

I’m sorry to hear such an anti-Typhoon (aka general anti-weapon) sentiment has grown even in mothercountries…Obviously “state’s coffers” are near empty, but so was many times during ColdWar and before.
Ok, EF2000 is probably the most advanced piece of weapon system, the Europe had a chance to build (apart from most modern Stealth ships) and is a grat leap ahead, especially for nations flying US-exported planes and must be appreciated as such.
Now, I saw some of you guys say you’re a (Eurofighter?) pilots, so I’d like to ask some things, which have been bothering me 🙂
First, many post here have been related to EF’s manoeuvrability…Correct me if I’m wrong, but it’s painfully obvious, we still need to see were indeed EF’s limits are. Different airshows, different pilots and all limited down to <6G (or maybe even less), makes people draw wrong conclusions…There’s was just one film (Southport 22.9.2007), in which the pilot was “in the mood” to push it a bit (will appreciate other links). On the contrary Raptor’s pilots push the envelope and beyond (post-stall) regulary…
There’s one other thing that’s very imporatant, which gets overlooked quite often…Raptor and Eurofighter are two different conceptions of aircraft. Raptor has “classic” elevators layout (behind the wing) and EF has foreplaned delta wing. Consequently, Raptor has to do a “push down” around the latheral axis to generate AoA, to even begin to actually move around the sky. Eurofighter doesn’t and as soon as foreplanes command the nose up, off EF goes. Of course, it doesn’t look so spectacular, but actually reduces amount of AoA (and consequenty drag too) needed to perform a turn with similar amount of loading and is faster (almost instant) usable in flight. Moreover, there was a film (it was a film about modern German weapons and EF was in the end of it, but forgot it’s name. If i find it on my drive will post it), in which EF prototype rolls a 360° in less than a second (0.8 sec). Happened so fast, the plane didn’t have time to even pitch down…
Now, I won’t be entering the debate of avioncs and propulsion>in my opinion the only weak point of EF, but there’s still plenty of thrust to go around 🙂

Finally, I just wanted to point out some strengths the EF has and which are comparable (if not better) with even the most modern planes the USA has to offer and before jumping into some other (sinking?!) boat, this may be something to consider.

Ok, there’s some off topic stuff here, but this is the only EF topic active, so I hope it’s ok…

Cola