MrB.175……..Ask ‘Albert’ of course! Here is a mega-rare shot of it at Farnborough on 8th September 1964 before it was repainted in the blue and white scheme and again at Coltishall four years later in the static in September 1968.
Enjoy! 😉
With you keen interest in all things RAE/A&AEE I thought you’d have it. Don’t suppose you’ve got a spare have you? 😀
The first shot really is a ‘blimey’! as I’ve never seen WR972 in those colours before. Do we have any ideas what happened to 972? I presume it went west on a dump somewhere? I’ve got a recollection it was scrapped at Farnborough, but????
(PS – with this and the shot of G-ALBO at St.Athan, I hope you’ve got a good alarm on your house!!! 😀 😀 )
MrB.175In reply to HP81 – I think that you will find that the fuselage of Avro Ashton WB491 was donated to Newark by BAE Woodford in March 2003.
Defo at Newark. Here’s a pic of her taken at Newark in August 2004.
MrB.175The Valetta is WJ491 which I think ended up on Gatow’s Fire Dump and the Hastings is TG502 which went the same way at Boscombe Downm if my memory serves me correctly.
Valetta WJ491 did end up on Gatow’s dump, here’s my shot of her in happier times at Farnborough in November 1968 and then unloved and unwanted at Gatow just before the bunson burner brigate took a liking to her. She was still there, albeit in bad condition in 1978, not sure how much longer she lasted after that.
Now, as this is turning into a bit of a Boscombe Down/A&AEE thread, who’s going to post a photo of the white and blue MR.3 Shackleton? Still looking for a good slide of this one – anyone help??? 😉
MrB.175Excellent photos Albert. Thanks for posting them.
I wonder if there are any more out there?
There certainly are!
Here’s a shot of XB259 taken in March 1968 also with rear doors removed and a shot of XB261’s cockpit at Newark in September 2004 – just after arrival.
MrB.175I always thought the Hastings on the Boscombe dump was WD496 (with the long nose probe) it was certainly there in Feb 73, somewhere it read it was taken out of service following a mishap of some sort. TG502 went to StMawgen in late 1972 for fire practice and was gone by 1977. TG500 the third A&AEE Hastings went to Bicester also in late 72 and later the parts turned up at Catterick fire school where it was roasted.
pogno, welcome to the forum.
From looking at my Hastings records you are quite correct. WD496 was the airframe that ended its days in the Boscombe fire pit. It could be seen for many years there as it arrived in 1974 and clung to life until 1982/83.
TG502 indeed ended its days at St.Mawgan with TG500 languishing at Bicester from 1972 until it was sectioned and parts moved to Catterick around 1977/78.
For interest I’ve posted a shot of TG502 below taken at RAF Eastleigh, Kenya in 1962!
MrB.175Well done ZHR – thats the beastie – not being good on civvy types it looked like a Brit from the distance!
IL-18, yep, that’ll be it then. Easily confused with a Brit for a distance.
You cerntainly had me going though, I thought it might have been one of the Brit ghost ships that are reported every now and again in Africa, a legacy from their years of operations ex Zaire – although gone for many years now.
MrB.175I am SURE i saw a Bristol Britannia airside though I suppose it could have been one of the similar Canadian jobs(CL-44????) it wasnt there when i left a fortnight later and looked active
CL-44? Britannia???
Nope, you must have been suffering heat exhuastion!!! :diablo:
Last flight of a Britannia was 1997 and CL-44 (if you call Conroy Guppy at Bournemouth Hurn) a CL-44, was around 2001/2.
If you’re sure it was four engined it could have been a big Douglas prop or even, but very remote, a Viscount (think only one of those flying in SA).
I guess from your comments above you didn’t get any photos of this either?
MrB.175….err, ahem!!
Oh, Poo! 😮
Now, please don’t tell me that’s from a slide as I’m still looking for a slide G-ALBO/7708M! at St.Athan. Can you post the whole image?
And what about this fuselage – remiss of you not to have a shot! :p
MrB.175I’d be interested to see people’s views on this as I think some interesting points have been made in the discussions mentioned above.
Dangerous thread to start because this subject evokes so many views, emotions, ideas and even arguments! However, for my part, my view is this:
All of the points/questions made in the start of this thread are vaild and will obviously change dependant on what’s close to your heart, your head or even where you live geographically.
The one constant I feel that is lacking in any of this is a serious understanding and investment in ‘our’ aviation heritage by the main and local government. It’s often said and usually true, that the UK aviation world would be a far richer place if it received the type of investment that paintings, building, trains and other items receive. After all, Britain was a world leader in all or many of the pioneering aviation feats of achievement in the last 100 years of powered flight and therefore I can never understand why not more importance or investment is placed in aircraft and museums that help celebrate this. Plainly, due to size and upkeep constraints this effects larger aircraft more than it does the smaller types.
Personally, for my money, I’d like to see a list drawn up so that at least one type of each significant British aircraft is protected under cover. As you can tell, the Britannia is a passion of mine and I still can’t believe that any of the 3 complete and 1 disassembled airframes have been afforded long term survivability by being under cover.
My interest in aviation was born out of my father’s interest and I remember when younger asking him questions like – Dad, what did a Valiant or Javelin sound like? (because I couldn’t see one flying)
In the future, I would hate my children therefore to ask – Dad, how big was a Britannia? (because none had survived)
Clearly this is an extreme example but it hopefully highlights a need to nationally agree the types that need targeting for long, long term survival.
Besides working in the aviation industry for both my income and when time allows to help preserve Britannia XM496 at Kemble, the enthusiast in me is always disappointed that I cannot go and view anywhere in the UK examples of a D.H. Hornet, a Stirlin, a Bristol Freighter, a Carvair etc, etc.
Although both a Bristol Freighter and Carvair could be saved and brought to the UK, the fact that none of these types currently survive on our shores is because they were allowed for various reasons to disappear.
Hence my call for a nationally agreed ‘this needs to be saved now’ policy.
As I said earlier, it’s the larger types that are badly effected and it feels only by luck that just one Beverley and one Valiant has survived.
There…that’s enough from me – my points, get Government to be more active in aviation heritage and ensure we grab the opportunity of protecting types that currently survive and numbers are dwindling and obtain replacement’s of types missing from a UK aviation heritage line up.
MrB.175Looking at the photo of 12875 this is not going to be the source.
We now need to establish what airframes were in service June 1966 that then cannot be the one in the photo. From those then left over we should try to establish 100% what they were doing in June 1966.
This may give us a list of candidates, but suspect it wont! Are we sure no other frames were withdrawn from the production line?
Looking again at the school today I can find no photos of the frame with us. The photographic section at Brize do not hold any archives older than 2-3 years so nothing to be found there. AHB and PRO (TNA) Kew may have something. RAFM Hendon may also be worth a look.
A friend has checked the RAF ‘M’ serial ledger and there is no entry for a Brit…
Again, someone who worked on it suffered in the belly holds enough to confirm it was a proper airframe and not a mock up, all the right features were there
Pete
To clarify actual production (and I’m sure someone will prove me wrong here!) including c/n 12875, a total of 86 Britannia’s were laid down and built.
The production line had long since closed by June 1966 and with the exception of the write off’s up until June 1966 all aircraft were in service and operational.
By June 1966, 8 airframes had been lost in accidents, they were:
3 x Series 100
G-ALRX written off Bristol 1954
G-ANBB crashed Ljubljana September 1966
G-ANBC written off Khartoum 1960
5 x Series 200/300
G-ANCA crashed Filton 1957 (prototype)
G-AOVD crashed near Hurn 1958
CF-CZB crashed Honolulu 1962
G-AOVO crashed Innsbruck 1964
XA-MEC written off Tijuana 1965
The crashes are exactly that, so not much left of the airframe after the accident but the write off’s consitute an airframe where it’s not commercially viable to return to service.
After all the communication in the thread my view now is that the fuselage we’re looking at is a 200/300 series and so from the list above that closes the door on G-ANBC, leaving just XA-MEC and realistically I cannot see the fuselage from this aircraft being transported back to the UK. In fact there are reports that is existed for 2-3 years following the accident slowly being robbed of parts before being cut up.
So, where does that leave us…? As the door is also closed now on 12875 (it being a 100 series also) in June 1966, the whole production line is accounted for.
So I beleive in line with Andy’s last comments we’re looking at one of the Series 200/300 mock-up’s. Now to clarify the term ‘mock-up’. My own personal view of a mock-up is one where by a 1/1 scale representation is made from any suitable material. For smaller aircraft wood was often used, but as far as my current employer is concerned (and I beleive manufactures of the period), a mock-up is a 1/1 scale build of the item you’re representing but with non fuctional parts (NFP) – sometimes call non serviceable parts (NSP).
This then gives credibility to the fuselage being or feeling ‘real’ as someone has already confirmed to you. In addition and its already been said, the photos certainly give the impression the fuselage is ‘real’ – i.e. metal skinned and I beleive was built as a fully functional mock-up for MoD purposes, hence the fitment of the ‘right’ sized freight door. HP81 may prove me wrong here but I’m pretty certain that prior to June 1966 not many, if any, civil Britannia’s had received the freight door mod from either ATL or Eagle.
Besides this (and again I stand to be corrected if wrong!) the door mod carried out by ATL and Eagle provided an aperture and door that was different in size to those in use by the RAF aircraft.
So in summary, I think this is a fusealge that was built (in the 50’s) to demonstrate the Britannia’s qualities to the MoD – hence freight door, and once production was over, Bristol passed it on to the MoD for training purposes. The problem is, because it seems currently so little is know about these airframes/fuselage’s, providing actual ID data is going to prove challenging!
By the way, a Britannia was allocated an RAF ‘M’ serial – it being G-ALBO which was given, although never carried, the number 7708M.
And regarding photo’s, can you clarify where Brize’s old photos are now? Where do they get archived? It’s difficult for me to do any digging at Kew or Hendon being sat here in Taipei! But, I’ll ask people I know that live close if they can go and have a poke around when they get the chance.
Also I’m sure that someone out there will have taken some more/better photos of this fuselage when on the Brize dump.
Albert – I’m sure you haven’t got any otherwise you would have posted already but do you know anyone that may have?
MrB.175does anyone have any Victor scrapyard pics?
Peter
Here’s some Victors for you…
All taken at Manston, XH590 & XH650 in May 1978 and XH616 in October 1985
MrB.175If I remember correctly from my Belfast days this means that the Aden wreck could have been flown back to the UK, then crudely repaired. Which might explain the slightly odd appearance of the fuselage in the original photo
Simon
The numbers don’t add up for it to be XL638. If the bare metal fuselage was at Abingdon in December 1966, this was 10 months before XL638 was written off.
I’m positive it’s not XL638.
MrB.175The current Air Movements School at Brize Norton has mock-ups of a VC-10
Albert
You of all people should know better than to call Brize’s Vicky 10 a mock-up!!! :diablo:
If you recall, that ‘mock-up’ once flew with the RAE from Bedford as XX914…and before that BCAL and BUA as G-ATDJ… :diablo:
If my memory serves me right last time I was at Brize I heard that it’s affectionately known as the ‘VC-5’ due to its now shortened fuselage!
MrB.175Aviation Traders converted several more using their own design, ATL99. Among these were CD, VP & VS.
This thread has awakened a dormant interest I had in this wonderful airliner so thank you for that.
Simon.
Simon
Either you’ve been doing some serious reading or you once worked for ATL!!! :p Go on – which is it? I have to admit to forgetting that fact 😮 and now you’ve mentioned it I do recall the ATL conversions.
As I’m sat here 5,500 miles away from my Britannia archives I can only provide what’s in the memory banks – which is getting smaller by every bottle of wine! 😀
Besides those you mentioned it would be great if you can clarify which airframes ATL converted – ta.
Glad to hear this thread has awakened your interest in the Whispering Giant, how would you like to come and work on 496? We’re always on the hunt for volunteers. Have a look at http://www.xm496.com
Don’t suppose by any chance you’ve got any 35mm slides of Brit’s you don’t want?
MrB.175and the fin is long gone sadly.
That’s sad to hear…how on earth did that happen? 🙁
I remember the fuselage on display in the airliner line-up many years ago in BOAC colours and the fin was attached then! :confused:
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