One I would like to float for consideration is

C/N 12875 VX454 NTU by MoS – Used for functional Mock-up. (From TAHS production list)

I think for now this is a pretty tight case that the ATDU frame became the AMTS one…..ID is the problem.

I think you’ve found it Pete. c/n 12875 is the only airframe I’ve never been able to track down it’s fate. According to records I’ve got, it was a built as a real airframe, and the fact it was ordered by the MoS and looks like it ended up at Abingdon I think confirms it was real, and I think that now it’s obvious it then moved from Abingdon to Brize to become the AMS training aid.

To clarify further, the RAF aircraft aside, British Eagle were the only civil operator in the 60’s to invest in a programme of converting passenger Brits for freight use.

In fact, this is the only reason non RAF Brit’s survived so long in service – look to airframes like G-ANCF, G-AOVP, G-AOVS, G-ANCD/5Y-AYR etc. The only reason Boscombe’s Brit XX367 survived is because at one time is was with Eagle as G-AOVM and received the freight door mod.

With no use as a freighter, virtually all other civil Brits perished late 60’s early 70’s. Only have to look at the Monarch, Caledonian and Transglobe fleets to see this – aircraft such as G-AOVA, ‘VG, ‘VH, ‘VJ, ‘VL, ‘VN – G-APNA, ‘NB etc and many more all became tin plates over a 5 year period.

So a bare metal fuselage with a freight door in the timeframe 1966 can only have been build for the MOD and with all 23 Britannia’s in service with the RAF at that time it leaves us with c/n 12875.

JOB DONE! 😀

I for one would still love to see more photos of this fuselage so if you can help track some down it would be much appreciated 😉

My goodness you were lucky to get that shot! Throughout the whole day you took that, there was an annoying car parked so close to the nose that it was impossible to take a photo without it being in it :diablo:

H’mm, yes, sorry ’bout that! However all you had to do is ask and I would have moved it!!! 🙂 In my defence, as I was working on her ALL day, it was my privilage to park next to the old girl! :p

Anyway, you know what they say Albert, the early bird catches the worm and I’d arranged for help with the steps to be moved first thing Sat morning for a little photoshoot. The way she was parked (not to our request I might add!) meant the sun was only good first thing in the morn.

Just to really annoy you here’s another couple shots! :p :p

and for your info, this year it’s planned she’ll be in the static at the top, where the VC-10 was parked. The starboard side will have been completed by then also. Will advise the photoshoot plans – I’m planning for some night floodlit piccys. 😉

Sorry, back to the topic at hand…

That’s it, that’s it…!!!

Andy

Thanks for posting those because as far as I’m concerned that is the same fuselage. The wing root looks the same as does the nose profile (although it still looks a little too steep to me) and more importantly it has a freight door already fitted!!!!! 😉

Also, if the date of these photos really is June 1966 then that’s before the date the AMS received their fuselage (December 1966) Abingdon is not too far from Brize and it means it 100% cannot be XL638, G-ALBO or G-ANCG.

All we need to do now is investigate which fuselage this is because it’s unlikely it’s c/n 12874 as stated in the photo caption as this was G-ALRX.

We’re getting nearer 😀 😀 😀

Is I.D. now becoming clearer???

Have just established contact, via another forum, with the present day Historian of the Air Movements School at Brize

Laurie/WebPilot

This contact has just sent me a PM with some very interesting information – I attached his email here:-

Your question about the Brit has been passed on to me. Luck has it that I have access to the school F540 for the time and can add a little.

I have read through the postings on the Flypast forum, and have started a simular thread on Air-Britains ABIX forum which I also run (am a director of A-B).

Two entries from the 540 add a little…

June 1977
Pracrical training area.
Projects have been in hand since may to obtain the Hercules mock-up from Lyneham to replace the Belfast which will be transferred to JATE. The second Hercules is required urgently to facilitate practical training on 2 aircraft simultaneously by one or more courses. MOD Harrogate have published the Britannia AIRFRAME for sale and many agencies have inspected the aircraft over the last 3 months. Nothing was achieved. The airframe will now be movemed to Shoeburyness.

Next entry 22 Feb 1978.
BRITANNIA FUSELAGE

The Britannia fuselage was removed from the practical training area of the school, and is to be disposed of locally for scrap. The fuselage had been in use at the school from Dec 66 to May 76 for movements training.

To fill in School history we moved here to Brize from Abingdon in 1972. I see in the flypast posts that ATDU at Abingdon had a Brit at one stage. The ATDU F540 is held at PRO Kew so that might be worth a look. The Manston write-off is looking like a candidate. One of the guys here worked on it and confirms it was a real frame and not a mock-up. Also confirms it is not the front end trainer.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

So where does that leave us now? :confused:

Here’s my thoughts…if the AMS did really receive a Britannia fuselage in December 1966 then following FiltonFlyers comments earlier in the thread on the Brize fuselage being an early test airframe, I think this now looks likely especially if we consider the following (although we have to presume some one cut a freight door sized hole in the side).

XL638 – Very unlikely, especially as the aircraft was written off in Oct ’67.

G-ALBO – Impossible as I think we’ve established the fuselage is not from a 100 series Britannia and existed until mid 1968.

G-ALRX – Same as above and it’s known this was just a cockpit section prior to 12/66.

G-ANCG – British Eagle 300 series (freight door added by Eagle) written off in emergency landing at Manston 20th April 1967.

So I think we’re nearly there. Andy, really do need you to try and post those photo’s of the test airframe to see how close it is to the one on the dump at the start of the thread.

Would still like to see better photos of the mysterious ship…

What do you guys think?

PS – Huge thanks to Sgt Pete Webber – Defence Movements School 😀

And what’s that in the background next to the hangar?

http://ox18.net/carterton/raf/pictures/9997page3.jpg

More great detective work.

That, definately, is a Britannia!

However, I think it’s the nose section G-ALRX which ended up at Boscombe Down and then the Bristol Aero Collection.

After talking at length to David Berry about this, David said the nose section from G-ALRX was just that – a nose section. In fact it was moved from Lyneham as a nose section so I tend to beleive that this is confusing the issue.

In addition, I think the G-ALRX nose section was moved to Boscombe Down to help serve as a crew trainer for their Brit XX367 well before this fuselage appeared on the dump.

As I said above, we’re still not there yet!!! :confused:

[QUOTE=HP81)The key to this could be in the windows. Not many seem to have had the fwd oval window & the small cabin window on the left side of the fuselage. All the RAF aircraft do have this set up. From what I can see none of the 312’s had the small window. Some 300’s do have the small window but not the forward one (US & Canadian versions), unless of course it is just blanked.

I had a thought that it could have been the fuselage of srs 308F G-ANCG that was w/o in an emergency landing at RAF Manston in 1967. But that was a US spec aircraft without the fwd window. (unless someone can check G-ANCF & tell me that it is just blanked out)

That seems to leave us with it being a srs 250 fuselage. Could it actually be XL638 recovered from Khormaksar?

I hope we solve this mystery, I’m hooked 🙂

Simon.[/QUOTE]

And a mystery it is!

More goor detective work Simon. I don’t think it was G-ANCG as it’s fuselage was taken to Southend after its Manston demise and was scrapped a few years later. It’s not G-ANCF because she was flying up until 1981 and after grounding her movements are well catalogued.

XL638 can still be a possibility, but I don’t think so going on first hand information from someone that was at Khormaksar when she ran off the runway. To back this up, there are some photos taken in David Berry’s excellent book – The Whispering Giant in Uniform, which show the large blume of black smoke rising into the sky following its destruction by the Royal Engineers. I just don’t think the RAF would have expended so much effort to bring a Brit fuselage back to blighty.

I hope someone finds out the real ID on this one, it’s beginning to bug me now…, and I’ve never really been a Britannia follower until now 😀

Think yourself lucky…its been bugging me for years!!! And another good point about the windows, I thought that, but then again, the original photo in Wrecks & Relics was small and I’d put it down to its bad quality and perspective.

We still need someone with ‘the knowledge’ or good piccys.

Never been a follower until now eh? Well the Whispering Giant has that effect on you! To tempt you further here’s a photo of XM496 taken the day before the Kemble Air Show on 18th June last year whilst I was putting the finishing touches to a lot of work.