Your posts make less and less sense, read any press statement, both are fully autonomous (they use the same flight system). And even following your line of “reasoning”, guess what 2005 is still 3 years ahead of 2008. 😉
LOL!
As if the FLIGHT systems had anything to do with their level of automation!!! 😀
So according to YOUR LOGIC, AVE-D had NO flight systems then?
No mate, the very FACT that FULL automation is NOT mentioned in the case of Raven is because it WAS NOT fully autonomous and YOU are the one in great need of sense here.:cool:
Starting by a far better comprehension of all the very flatering stuff you post.
Autonomous guidance and control and flight systems are OBVIOUSLY different things, just as FBW FCS and automatic pilots are..
Corax served to develop what its programme goal says it did; Explore developement of advanced flight control system.
NOT the full automation you try to imply using uninformed sources, perhaps someone else thought so but it is clearly NOT the case and the UK comes only SECOND in Europe after SAAB as the best specialised press says rightly.
It takes some GUTS to deny BAe the knowledge of their own designs no?
TRY again:
Also note that the BAE pdf you posted says that Raven had a payload, could that have been in a big hole in the frame… you know as in a weapons/payload bay?
Sure appart that its role is also clearly NOT that of an armed UAV and payload as listed by BAe document is NOT weapon load… you know as for two Mk82 and GBU 12 bombs?.
Later stages of the flight-test programme will see the integration of a Smart Integrated Weapons Bay (SIWB), which is under development by Alenia Aeronautica. The SWIB module will incorporate the Ruag pantograph system and will add an electro-optic imaging sensor and laser designator supplied by Galileo Avionica. That sensor system will be mounted at the head of the bay, with development contracts signed on 19 June this year.
Once incorporated into the Neuron demonstrator, initial ground-based testing of the both weapons bay types will be first carried out at the French air force’s flight test centre at Istres. Flight testing of the SWIB will be carried out at Sweden’s Vidsel test range and the Italian ministry of defence’s Perdasdefogu facility on Sardinia. Actual weapons separation testing will be restricted to Vidsel.:D
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles…l-weapons.html
I hope you understand DESIGN AUTHORITY…
Flight International unmanned air vehicle (UAV) directory 2006
http://www.flightglobal.com/Assets/GetAsset.aspx?ItemID=14318
nEUROn Acrhives…
DATE:30/11/06
SOURCE:Flightglobal.com
IQPC UCAV 2006: Neuron UCAV to have twin internal weapons bays
By Peter La Franchi
Dassault Aviation has revealed that the consortium developing the Neuron unmanned combat air vehicle demonstrator now plans to fit the aircraft with twin internal weapons bays under newly released revised configuration details, designated design “781-20”.
The consortium also plans to use Mk82 and GBU 12 bombs to carry out proposed ground strike testing of the aircraft once its basic flight characteristics have been proven.
The 781-20 configuration is near final, says Dassault vice-president for international relations Yves Robins, but further refinements are possible. “The overall shape definition is almost decided upon.”
Design 781-20 strengthens the visual parallels between Neuron and the Boeing X-45A, with near identical forward fuselage side profiles, but differing wing forms. Design 781-20 has a wing area of 50m2 (540ft2) compared with 36m2 for the X-45A and 58m2 for the X45C.
“The main advantage of this choice obviously is in both controllability and radar cross section.”
Speaking at the IQPC UCAV 2006 conference in London 28 November, Robins said the overall design cleared its first intermediate “synthesis” review in September, with a second to follow in February to mark the end of the project pre-feasibility phase.
The current phase “includes about 12 main technological roadmaps” Robins said. Seven of those are dedicated to low-observable technologies to meet programme goals for reduced radar, infrared and acoustic signatures.
“The pre-feasibility assessment is almost done. We have identified most of the technical risk. Neuron is a technology demonstrator and it will never be produced in series. Being a technology demonstrator means that we have to accept a certain level of risk – however we have to carefully define that level of risk through trade-offs.”
Supporting high-speed windtunnel testing of the external design and inlet has also begun, with this being carried out in Switzerland by Ruag.
Other partners in the project include Saab Systems, Hellenic Aerospace Industries, EADS Casa, Alenia Aeronautica and Thales.
Some 40 trade-off decisions have so far been made in the technical domain Robins said, as part of the process of identifying programme risks.
“It is really through an iterative process between risk mitigation and test and measurement that we succeed in fine-tuning what will be the real Neuron definition in 2008.”
The initial internal weapons bay module will be equipped with a pantograph type weapons extension and release system to be supplied by Ruag.
Later stages of the flight-test programme will see the integration of a Smart Integrated Weapons Bay (SIWB), which is under development by Alenia Aeronautica. The SWIB module will incorporate the Ruag pantograph system and will add an electro-optic imaging sensor and laser designator supplied by Galileo Avionica. That sensor system will be mounted at the head of the bay, with development contracts signed on 19 June this year.
Once incorporated into the Neuron demonstrator, initial ground-based testing of the both weapons bay types will be first carried out at the French air force’s flight test centre at Istres. Flight testing of the SWIB will be carried out at Sweden’s Vidsel test range and the Italian ministry of defence’s Perdasdefogu facility on Sardinia. Actual weapons separation testing will be restricted to Vidsel.
Robins revealed that studies over the past 12 months had included assessment of a potential two engine configuration that would have used twin Snecma Larzac powerplants and either one or two inlets, before finally settling on a modified Rolls-Royce Adour series plant, with an agreement with that company signed in July this year. Volvo is developing the engine exhaust nozzle under a separate subcontract finalised with Saab in March.
He also confirmed that the key reason behind abandonment of earlier cranked wing configurations had been the desire to maximise low observability. The final system is planned to have a radar cross-section equivalent to the nose boom on a Dassault Rafale fighter.
Configuration drawings of the 781-20 design shown at the conference by Robins, but not issued by the company, indicated radar-absorbent materials would be included in the wing leading edge and nose sections of the aircraft. The demonstrator will have just four control surfaces.
Planning for the use of commercially available subsystems has seen decisions to use a derivative of the Dassault Falcon 900EX nose landing gear as the Neuron main gear. Similarly, the Mirage 2000 nose gear will be ported to perform the same role on the UCAV demonstrator.
The next major design review on the €405 million ($534 million) project is scheduled for June 2007. Work on the definition phase for systems capability is expected to start in the first quarter of 2008, followed by the start of airframe definition in the fourth quarter of that same year.
In parallel, structural and subsystem manufacture would begin with final assembly of the first demonstrator occurring between the first and third quarters of 2009.
Robins said 2008, 2009 and early 2010 will be devoted to the development and final assembly, with this to take place at Istres in southern France said Robins.
Low observability ground testing will be carried out by the French DGA armaments agency, which is the co-ordination and funding authority for the project, at a facility near Rennes in Brittany.
Neuron’s first flight is planned for 2011, but the French DGA indicated earlier this year that the milestone could slide into 2012.
Robins said the flight-test crew will comprise one demonstrator commander, a test co-ordinator, a flightline team, ground and test controllers, and a safety officer.
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2006/11/30/210862/iqpc-ucav-2006-neuron-ucav-to-have-twin-internal-weapons.html
I’m sorry, L.Assap, Raven was autonomous.
http://www.space.com/spacenews/archive06/Uav_041706.html
“The fully autonomous, jet-powered Raven first took wing in December 2003, and a second prototype flew in Australia 11 months later.”
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/tanaris/
“In ten months the Raven project was taken from concept to first flight. The Raven programme was targeted at demonstrating flight control and autonomous system functionality and also rapid prototyping development and manufacturing techniques and capabilities.
Raven, which first flew in 2003, is a highly aerodynamically unstable jet-powered autonomous vehicle and may be the only finless UAV outside the USA.
The Raven UAV is fully autonomous from take-off to landing and is configured to provide very high agility. Raven used the advanced flight control systems developed by BAE for novel air vehicle shapes to create highly survivable, strategic UAV systems.”
As to lo observability, just think Halo and Replica.
I don’t think so Jack i already checked these source as well as the whole of BAe’s site and it counterdict the BAe documentation…
Try yourself to find the SAME stament with BAe and see for yourself, something else, which one flew in 2005?…
http://www.investis.com/bae/presentations/8autonomoussystemsnfuturecapability.pdf
I’ll stick with the official BAe sources if you dont mind we got enough confusion from inacurate press articles.
first European UAV will full automatic flight
No my dear SIR it was SAAB SHARC…
Wholly autonomous take-offs and landings and short duration flights during a test campaign completed on 27 August.
DATE:07/09/04
SOURCE:Flight International
Saab UCAV flies autonomously
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2004/09/07/187083/saab-ucav-flies-autonomously.html
Nope, Raven flew in DECEMBER 2003 fully autonomously! Funny that you are now taking Continental Europe to try and proof an advantage, but then Dassaulkt suck balls at autonomy, their first flight was 2008, 4 years after saab and 5 after BAE.
http://www.investis.com/bae/presentations/8autonomoussystemsnfuturecapability.pdf
WHERE does it say FULLY autonomous for Raven in December 2003? = BAe PDF (Pages 14 and 15).
Rob L and his sources……
Rob L;1347442]Not really, UCAV is a subcategory of UAV, every UCAV is a UAV but not every UAV is a UCAV. So saying UAV and UCAV to Taranis or anyother UCAV is completely correct. The term UAV does not exclude weapons capability.
But THIS DOES.
Where does it SAY weapon bay or Weapon systems on Taranis programme goals?
HERE MoD definition for UCAV.
What is completly incorrect is to qualify of C for COMBAT whatever UAV is UNARMED…
Taranis is NOT going to be weaponised therefore NOT demonstrating COMBAT missions but “emulating” one which is what EVERY single UAV can do; even my lit’ bro R-C, equiped with a hand grenade it could do better…..
So when NOT armed there is NO other denomination possible but UAV as even Mike Turner says about Taranis.
There are no weapons releases planned, because gravity is a fairly well developed concept.
There are no weapons releases planned, BECAUSE there is no plan to develop a STEALTH WEAPON bay and its associated systems.
As for the complexity involved into droping a weapon from a high-subsonic internal bay you have little idea; gravity seems to be affecting your jugement.
We’re pretty confident gravity works and we have proven separation on all sorts of platforms.
http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r279/sampaix/ufroma2zjl0-1.jpg
NOT From Corax, Raven or a stealth internal beapon bay, NO.
“We’re pretty confident gravity works and we have proven separation on all sorts of platforms. What’s important here is to prove a tangible military capability, … to focus on the operability of the weapon system. How does the UCAV manage the interface with the weapon? How does it ensure the rules of engagement are adhered to?” Allam asked.
They have NO clue, so much for UAV weapon releases as you are claironing Mr Rob and you can be pretty sure they’re going to try to figure that out before they actualy CAN manage to launch one on a target AND this does NOT indicate it will be done onboard Taranis itself at ANY time, at least nEUROn programme is cristal clear at this level……
Call us when Taranis will have demonstrated combat capabilties to deserve the C for U(C)AV…
Link.
http://www.isrjournal.com/story.php?F=3376485So Taranis is to interface with weapons… perhaps in a weapons bay? Aviation Week, FlugRevue you name it. Two weapons bays.
Where does it say it will be done onboard Taranis? MoD/BAe link please this is a joke, typical…
Neuron will demonstrate weapons integration and release in its flight tests, which will commence in France for basic testing, then move to Sweden for weapons testing and complex flight tests, and finish in Italy for sensor and low-observable tests.
http://www.isrjournal.com/story.php?F=3376485
This STILL managed to bring up the issue and shows the MAIN difference between the two…
MoD stament on Taranis weapons integration and release Mr Rob L?
Enough with the unoficial stuff couterdicting MoD own programme goals list in which there is NO mention of a weapon bay nor associated systems nor ANY form of their respective development or budget.
And BTW since you seems to be good at diggin’ whatever you hardly underdtand, why is it that you NEVER managed to find ANY official information on Taranis weapon bay, associated systems or budget?
And at least 3 years late.
Still one better.
Yes it does, its one of the most important aspects of UAVs/UCAVs, no wonder Dassault had to give it to Saab for Neuron.
You conceipt of DESIGN is strange to say the least…
Source that says that flight was not autonomous? Fact is BAE is years ahead in autonomy compared to Dassault because the absolute latest date would be 2005 when Herti flew fully autonomously in the UK (http://www.investis.com/bae/presentations/8autonomoussystemsnfuturecapability.pdf), that is at least 3 years (more probably 5 due to Raven) ahead of Dassault.
Which Official source says the FIRST Raven flight in 2003 was autonomous? NONE.
No need to keep up, they are ahead by a long shot.
NOT in the design dpt NO, they are decades behind and it is proven by Dassault series of world’s FIRST in BOTH civilian and military sectors, and BAe arent the only ones to lag behind.
You were going on how much better France is at engines but they are using both the same UK/French engine (though the Taranis one will have R-R modifications).
Cost effective and stil half-French since this seems to bother you. 😀
You regard me pointing out who exactly you are an insult? lol
BAe work on IR reduction; since NOR Raven NOR Corax had ANY, and this, YEARS after SNECMA M88…
FACT: MoD own technology roadmap stated CLEARLY the UK need ot develop IR reduction technologies (already in use onboard Rafale at least ten years earlier if not more) only a few years ago and BAe was still flying Hawk trainers with simlilar IR reduction devices….
To intellectual honnesty YOU are rather insulting.
BAE Systems had early this year appeared set to secure a contract worth “tens of millions of pounds” to conduct a technology demonstrator project (TDP) to investigate unmanned combat air vehicle (UCAV) technologies for the MoD, but chief executive Mike Turner says: “There have been discussions over many months and the position has changed. We now expect the MoD to launch a very large sized UAV programme.” This is likely to encompass both unmanned strike platforms and unmanned reconnaissance systems, he says
DATE:19/09/06
SOURCE:Flight International
BAE to lead major UK UAV study
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?p=1347450&posted=1#post1347450
Looks like you missed a bit no?
Parliament that seem to describe Taranis as both a UCAV and UAV almost interchangably. They are the ones paying the bills so you would think they would know :eek::D
You meant nEUROn airframe? It’s the name ofthe TEAM too.
BTW: Parliament are mystaking the technology demonstrated and the TDV itself.
Taranis isn’t armed but demonstrates technologies in vue of developement of the future UK UCAV be it a collaborative or fully indigenously developed one.
I have little problem with this but with those who have been bashing the French community with a UK “first” thing when in fact it is no more than a more developed DUC and this started from the day nEUROn was launched, we all know why and whom was the main architect of this legend.
So far the only UCAV in construction in the EUs is still nEUROn.
As for UAV developement:
Dassault/Sagem Slow/Fast.
The AVE-D’s flight consisted of an entirely automated sequence starting with its roll from its parking spot, to runway alignment, take-off, in-flight manoeuvres, landing, braking and moving back to the parking apron.
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2008/07/12/225280/dassault-uav-demonstrator-completes-first-autonomous.html
A little more than from runway-to-Runway…
Rob L;1347378]BAE doesn’t publish photos. You’ll see soon enough.
They didn’t publish ANYTHING about a weapon bay development because there is NOTHING there to publish about it; there is NO weapon bay planed for Taranis.
Nope, Raven flew in DECEMBER 2003 fully autonomously! Funny that you are now taking Continental Europe to try and proof an advantage, but then Dassaulkt suck balls at autonomy, their first flight was 2008, 4 years after saab and 5 after BAE.
NO it didnt, and SAAB conducted an entire mission profile LONG before BAe, you’re only giving Raven’s FIRST flight date NOT that of a fully autonomous flight of course, the classic mystake…
More dramatically, BAE also recently conducted its first fully autonomous mission using a jet-powered UCAV-type demonstrator dubbed Corax (pictured below). Flown for the first time during 2004, the high-speed design uses a shrouded, above-fuselage engine and has an extended wing with moving control surfaces. BAE refers to the experimental design as “a highly survivable, strategic UAV system” employing “flexible and modular advanced flight-control systems.”
DATE:19/12/05
SOURCE:Flight International
BAE unveils its UCAV secrets
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2005/12/19/203649/bae-unveils-its-ucav-secrets.html
Funny that the “fact” is your opinion!
Not my opinion fully documented FACTS.
Fact is that BAE is designing one UCAV and one armed HALE UAV and Dassault has a 50% share in one UCAV.
FACT BAe is designing an UAV and Dassault-led team an UCAV.
True, it was also a 60kg toy.
No matter what your are heavier but didn’t do much more for BAe than keeping up with Dassault and SAAB…
Funny that Neuron uses a R-R/Turbomecca Adour.
What so funny? Turbomeca is French as far as i know Taranis is going to use it too no?
Haha, just now you were condemning collaborative projects. lol Fact is that Raven totally surpassed Dassault’s UAVs and that by late 2003 BAE was ahead in autonomy and on par in everything else we know hard facts about.
Autonomy doesn’t do much for design expertise…
Lord Assap = banned member sampaix/fonck/thunder.
Personal attack in view of a total incapability to argue properly, your trademark, 😀
Forgot that BAE has TWO fully national programmes now have you?
UAVs.
Just shows how freaking slow they are because Taranis will fly first!
[/QUOTE]
UAV…
Funny that the “fact” is your opinion!
Not my opinion; fully documented FACTS.
Fact is that BAE is designing one UCAV and one armed HALE UAV and Dassault has a 50% share in one UCAV.
FACT BAe is designing an UAV and Dassault an UCAV.
True, it was also a 60kg toy.
No matter what your are heavier but didnt do much more for BAe…
Funny that Neuron uses a R-R/Turbomecca Adour.
What so funny? Turbomeca is French as far as i know Taranis is going to use it too no?
Haha, just now you were condemning collaborative projects. lol Fact is that Raven totally surpassed Dassault’s UAVs and that by late 2003 BAE was ahead in autonomy and on par in everything else we know hard facts about.
T
he AVE-D’s flight consisted of an entirely automated sequence starting with its roll from its parking spot, to runway alignment, take-off, in-flight manoeuvres, landing, braking and moving back to the parking apron.
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2008/07/12/225280/dassault-uav-demonstrator-completes-first-autonomous.html
Autonomy doesn’t do much for design expertise…
Lord Assap = banned member sampaix/fonck/thunder.
Personal attack in view of a total incapability to argue properly, your trademark, 😀
Forgot that BAE has TWO fully national programmes now have you?
UAVs.
Just shows how freaking slow they are because Taranis will fly first!
[/QUOTE]
UAV.
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