so why bother with the nozzle?

Well it works FINE on M88 but it had a dual nozzle system with a cooling channed between the two.

The second (External) set being more proheminent it shields the main set of (hotter) nozzles from a <> 45* angle.

The engine case is ALSO cooled with an extra channel which means the engine skin is way cooler too, of course this costs extra weight (additional engine case, nozzle actuators, hydrolics etc) and people tends to oversee this when it comes to M88 TWR…

From Rafale’s first deployement, US and other nations pilots reported having trouble locking on them at angles which would cause no problem whatsoever vs other types, and we’re talking AIM 9Ls which are no slouch when it comes to seeker sensitivity…

ONERA M88 IR spectrum.

Nice touch…

IR reduction measures HAVE to be included from design stage or it simply doens’t work so some manufacturer doesn’t even bother with more than nozzle material.

I would be extremely surprised if the cranked shape had any impact on IR signature. Don’t see a logical connection.

It does reduce EM signature perhaps i mystakenly typoed (Wow!).

I don’t think a test pilot like Jon Beesley can afford to say anything negative about the F-35. He was hired by LM and thus is obliged to follow LM’s policy. If LM says it’s very maneuvrable, then this is what Jon Beesley will spread around, at least officially..

You’re right there but he still never mentioned anything like Hypermaneuvrability nor F-35 strutural G limits…

Where? How do you know this has anything to do with IR suppression?

Precisely. Material used is now COMMON among engine manufacturers, they reduces IR signature slightly compared to metalic nozzles but are more built with this materials to minimise maintainance and increase their lifespan than anything else.

AND these nozzles were developed using a F-16 to reduce EM signature as well which explain their crancked shape.

This have nothing to do with effiecient IR reduction measure considering that the F135 is running RED HOT by today’s standards…

I have severe doubts about the credibility of test pilot’s claims. They are on the pay bill of LM and don’t enjoy any kind of freedom of speech, every word they speak out was carefully prepared and filtered by the PR dept.

You’re a bit harsh with him, methink, there nothing in his comment which mentions high levels of maneuvrability, he just being kind to his aircraft but didn’t get into the details of its flight envelop and its limitations…

The point is that some are interpreting what he says…

Jackonicko
Rank 5 Registered User Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,391

Nice use of the phrase “a tad”, if I might say so.

My appologies, you were spot on on the F-1 issue. Happy New Year.

I’m not sure what u are asking about here?
Is it about the AL-31F engine vs 117-S engine?

The redesigned engine involves increased AIRFLOW which in itself is a sign of limitation in military power output in regard to supercruise…

The curent EJ-200 and M88-2 E4s have the same issue with a pressure recovery limited to Mach 1.3 without increased airflow…

the specification for the EJ200 required a growth potential of more than 15%. This can be achieved by a number of methods, including increased airflow and/or increased Turbine Entry Temperature (TET) and higher fan compression ratio, while remaining within current dimension and weight parameters. The engine core has actually been designed with an even greater growth in mind. http://www.eurojet.de/default.php?p=4&cid=10

Note: Work on the ECO was also focused on an increase in airflow…

I am not familiar with the Russian engine types though only the technical aspects of the design and their effects on aircraft performances.

It’s not like you or anyone on this forum does.. :rolleyes: The man at least tries to analyze in depth the handful of useful info that was published. The ones who ‘discredited’ him so ‘successfully’ provided nothing but trolling..

I concur.

Note that i do not necessarly agrees with all that he wrote, in particular about Typhoon where i (Yes you read well even myself know Typhoon design basher) thought he was a tad over critical.

But i happen to have followed the F-35 story from a long time ago and have tons of vey useful archives.

People are total blinded by a technico-commercial F-35 mythology and forget the reality of the program and its design.

I personaly define it as a “Stealthy A7” rather than a true multi-role.

Jacko is right, quite many F1EQs were lost to IRIAF aircraft. Especially Iranian Tomcats severely decimated Iraqi Mirages claiming no less than 12 AIM-54A Phoenix kills, 9 AIM-7E-4 Sparrow kills and 10 AIM-9P Sidewinder kills. Three other Mirages were shot down by F-4E Phantoms using the earlier AIM-7E-2 Sparrow. There also were few damages and unconfirmed kills.

Mea Culpa… (Damned Iraqi pilots!).

The thing that’s so funny is that he thinks if he cons the Austrailian government into avoiding the F-35 that they’ll get the F-22.

He’s got some very valid arguments and elaborates to a level i haven’t seen in this forum, so i wonder what you guys real motivation IS at bashing the guy’s up.

If you think he is so bad why dont you just tell us why in technical terms?

Please counter his claims properly instead of going personal which have little impact on the subject anyway.

I dont care your opinion on the guy, this is not a saloon for old gossiping ladies but a military forum (or am i mystaking?). 😀

1) Supercruise.
Will it get to 1.7 like the F-22… no, but 1.2 is likely

NOT according to L-M themself if you have an official refresh feel free to post it otherwise this is another legend forum trying to survive reality.

2) High Max Ceiling.
Not known at this time but must meet or beat the specs of the fighters it replaces as stated in RFP.

WRONG: As requiered 35.000ft.

3) EM Low Observability
No problem

Yes problem: Way lower than F-22.

4) IR Low Observability.
Not as good as F-22, but better than 4th gen. Check the a$$ end of the F135 and you will see very thick, white “feathers” in the exhaust nozzle. The only reason they would have to be thick is that they are not make out of metal.

Sorry mate every single engine curently inmservice posses these but NO IR superssion measure as such i.e engine case AND exhaust cooling.

5) High maneuverability.
In a recent flight test (with the weight UN-optimized AA-1 airframe) with a fully loaded (both fuel and 5000 lbs of simulated ordnance), the pilot stated that it accelerated as good as a clean F-16 Blk 50 and maneuvered almost as well as the F-22.

Yea sure. You still CANT read limited to….

For your info, the current generation of AAMs needs to pull 3 X a target amount of Gs to score a kill WITHIN its NEZ, which means a 7.0 or 7.5 Gs aircraft is history even out of the NEZ.

I leave the 9 G version off the hook as in many scenarios other aircrafts will be limited to 9 Gs too but…

When one CAN pull 11 Gs it’s another story alrogether and does a LOT more for survivibility than limited EM L.O. expecialy vs an IR AAM when your engine runs hotter than anything else in the world and isn’t colled as much as some concurent.

almost as well as the F-22

Below 7.0 7.5 or 9.0 G, i know a few trainers capable of this…

Welcome back to hearth.

@haavarla

How does more installed thrust help?
What is the thrust-drag ratio at M1?

Source:

Aircraft Performance Flight Testing.

Air Force Flight Test Center. (Update June 2003).

Edward AFB

Funny questions, to find the Drag Coefficient in ANY aircraft takes a lot more than we can gather without manufacturers classified datas and proper simulation softwares (I got this but no datas for feed into it) but at least we can define thrust accuratly or nearly at every possible Mach regime.

The Iraqis lost several F1s, too.

Out of contest, he was mentioning conflict involving no US militaries…

As for the Iraquis, they could have flown F-15 the results would have been the same i think, their Mig 29 didn’t fare much better…