Scrapping the program is a realistic alternative, albeit one that gets less realistic with every month that rolls by because there is said to be ‘no alternative’. :rolleyes:

So why bash your head against the wall, you have already said no alternative ? Oh wait you rolled your eyes at the end of that:rolleyes:

So tell me the alternative ? Because all I have seen is **** throwing against the JSF and not one single realistic alternative ?

After three month the assembly line would start and one month further on the first new built F-22 will leave that with a constant rise in numbers per month from a 24 hours working day or three shifts. The first examples will be built from spare parts till the delivery of new built parts will catch-up to that new demand and the work-force will rise too. All that will not be done by new trained ones at first. Most of the work-force will come from production-lines of for civil aircraft or less important military ones. That is close to the worst case demand. When cost is no prime issue even under semi peace-time conditions the first new built examples could be delivered in less than on year from the order to go. An ordinary restart under present peace-time conditions will come close to the claimed three years.
To avoid misunderstandings I do not see one of the claimed options for the next years to come. It is just the case some foreigner (enemy) will see (judge) the possible capabilities of the present US military complex. Maybe the former fame is no longer justified.

mmmmm, to me it is not so simple, easy enough to say, but in practicality ?? logistically how many hours do you think actually goes into the parts to complete one airframe ? It may only take a week on the production line, but the hours behind the scene ? some of these parts had how many years lead in time just to produce them ? and to be honest I agree with the other guys, the line is already closed and everyone have moved on, in real wartime situation I could not ever see the need for the F22 to ever be re-opened, technology by its very nature has already overtaken the F22. So this is why I do not get this side of the debate ? the effort to do it is pretty much a waste of time and money that could be better spent ramping up production of current run airframes, no matter what they are

Wrong. They shipped the Harriers of the RAF to the Falklands. Out of question to do so in peace-time. LM and Boeing have the personal and assembly lines to produce a developed fighter in short order under war-time conditions. In that case civil production will be stopped to free all capacities for war-time demands at first. Since WW2 the USA had never real war-time conditions to make use of that capability. Today it takes a lot of time to free public money before someone like LM will rise a little finger at least. Business is done by lawyers at first. Even a F-22 is assembled within weeks on a 24 hours line as long as someone will pay the bill for that. There is always a low rate production of spare parts for the F-22s in full service. Just during the end of its intended service life that will stop to use up the spare parts at hand.

So in full war conditions, how quickly do you think LM could start F22 production and how many would come off the line every day ?

Duh… I am talking about doing mods to current aircraft.

And the budget for that would come from where ? Would it really be a worthwhile investment with how many airframes ?

The design requirement of the F-35. The requirement assumes that the F-22 will be needed for high end (aka anti-access) threats. This would be one example of why that is:

Could you explain that for me ? I dont understand how it shows an F35 or Shornet (as was the bulk of the story quoted from APA) as a “second tier” platform ? have never heard of that term before, nor does what you have shown make any reference at all about “second tier” platforms, what makes a second tier platform ?

Cheers

“Which company’s are courting which ? Who is taking them out on the junket’s, who is paying for dinner ? I can tell you LM is not the only company out there doing it !”

My understanding is that a basic element of the journalistic trade is to extract dinners, media trips and PacMin 1-48th models from all competitors equally, to avoid any hint of bias.:diablo:

Absolutely, and I don’t deny them that either, I work in an industry that lives on this 🙂 But one must admit it can and does lead to bias, just as the general punter has one view or another on all facets of life, they then can be swayed by what they read, and once you get you opinion formed on a subject, especially if you are passionate about it, as we are, then this is what happens. I could not see for example LM spending a lot of money on Bill Sweetman ? Could be wrong ?

It is not a bad thing, just pointing out the different ways people go about it and the fact that because I have questioned peoples views and asked to have it quantified, people have just assumed I am against their view, not so, I just prefer fact and debate based on it, not conjecture

F-35

As far as I can make out Horde is Carlo Kopp…he is a recent arrival on this forum. Up till now the forum has been fairly balanced on the matter of the F-35 with both pro and anti being cordial on the matter. Now show any hint of support and the APA chorus will shout you down as a LM stooge.

The thing is in respect of Carlo and APA there are things I agree on, I think the APA site is an excellent resource for the lay person on matters like radar and surface to air missiles and I agree with Carlo on the subject if UAV/UCAV/AUCAV in respect of their limitations. Its other things that grate:

Fantasy Australian air force building aroung the F22/F111/KC747

Suggesting every other allied nation should select F22 (an aircraft not for sale) for all roles included carrier operations

Suggesting that every new Chinese or Russian fighter will thrash all western fighters except the F22

The article on the Typhoon comparing it to a legacy Hornet

Article suggesting UK should replace already inducted Typhoon for F16 (almost had me choking it was so bonkers)

Article suggesting Fleet air arm should induct the F22

Carlo getting a flight in Super Hornet then writing glowing report about it – then flipping to how awful the aircraft is when the RAAF does the sensible thing and buys it over the F22 (again not for sale) and retiring his beloved F111 (he doesn’t like being called out in this one – expecting a rant)

So Carlo and the contributers of APA you are more then welcome on this forum but please do understand this is a critical environment.

Exactly what I was trying to say, thanks 🙂
This is where the grey comes into it, very hard for the lay person to seperate the information. The journo side of things is much the same, you have your general defence writers for mainstream papers who are there to make a story and sell papers, I have seen many times in Australia how the also use selective information, twist the truth to make the story which equals copies sold for their editor.

Dedicated defence journo’s for magazine’s etc can in some respects be the same but the other twist to add to that is their alliances ? Which company’s are courting which ? Who is taking them out on the junket’s, who is paying for dinner ? I can tell you LM is not the only company out there doing it !

Im not sure who Horde is, dont really care, I have posted who I am, he has not when callenged