So in short, what you mean is this, if you want to proccure our CV, you would also have proccure our Mig-29Ks?

Hmmm, respectfully it sounds i bit hars to me..
In reality the Mig-29K is a Naval fighter which is at large far cheaper vs F-18, Rafale. And can use Catobar take-off too. Plus India get the additional UPG upgrade for its older mainstay Mig-29 fleet as well, which is a lot of bang for the bucks really.
In that i can see IAF need to help RSK MIG staying alive, but at the same time they get a fair product(s) deal as well.

Is there any image of MiG-29K with necessary landing gear for CATOBAR ops ?

Sorry dear, but i just couldn’t help myself from asking you this… What according to you is the difference between a STOBAR & CATOBAR carrier & ops? :rolleyes:

To my French buddies….

Does the Rafale have the same strengthened forward fuselage and landing gear as the Rafale-M?

To my Brit buddies….

Typhoon has been displayed & even somewhat promoted in Naval variant. So my question is can the Typhoon that is currently operating withstand the catapult launch without ripping its nose section off? Or will the Naval variant have to go back to the drawing table and rework/strengthen the front fuselage for CATOBAR ops?

There is already something going on in here about the missiles.
http://trishul-trident.blogspot.com/2011/10/why-is-this-drdo-official-in-moscow.html

It gives India more voice internationally. Ideally we should have mobile canisterised ICBMs & Submarine Launched IRBMs, no country in the world should be outside our missile range, friend or foe. It will give you respect among friends and fear among enemies.

😉

+1

my simple solution (as the US feared in the 90s), licence produce Topol-M 😎

It looks like their 90s assessment of a “Topol-M” kind of stuff in Indian arsenal is getting real. But delayed by more than a decade.

They certainly suffer from a lack of drive which can only be provided by profit motive. Which can only provided by privatising all DPSUs.

Do you have any clue on how things turn around for good, in your favorite case of privatisation? :rolleyes:

It is two +1 simple thing(s) that are independent of “Private” or “Public” ownership —– accountability & proper management! + a sincere commitment to the work a person is doing and to the organization.

Any institute or organization that have the above in place can never go wrong to the extend of a disaster!
Unfortunately there is only ISRO that I can point out right now who fulfill all the three above.

In the case of privatization, if the guys don’t work and give results he will be fired and penalized. Nothing of that sort have been happening in the PSUs. In short no accountability.

Do you want to hear the best case of your efficient privatization? Look no further than the roads India have. What most Indian’s don’t know is the amount that Indians spent on roads annually from their own tax money. Its over Rs.40,000crores annually that is spend on making roads, then doing patch work and then patching up the patch work and then next year the repeat of the process. Have you ever though about why we have to spend so much annually? The reason is there is no accountability. If someone is made accountable for the dirty work he does, the work will be much better,

My personal opinion has always been against privatization of national assets and will remain so. What we need is to have accountability & proper management.

The MKI is there in larger numbers yes but its clear that the IAF thinks the world about the M2Ks otherwise they would not have gone for the ridiculously expensive upgrade.

They simply did not have other option than to go for the upgrade. If Isreali’s had a cheaper upgrade option for the M2K IAF would have looked at it….Now lets look it at a little more closer. The M2K upgrade deal is insanely high compared to the MiG-29 upgrade. No doubt. But will it help the M2K-5 reverse the spanking the MiG-29s of IAF gave the M2Ks in the late 80s??? ….. Dare to put your bet – $2.4billion M2K-5 Vs $980million MiG-29UPG. 😀

And don’t forget the commission of the French and if a thorough check on ex-service officers is done, don’t get surprised from whom they might hav e got commissions from. It most likely have to be from western manufacturers.

I did see a moron asking why no Russian firm is blacklisted in some other forum. The simple reason is Russian defense dealers are not private and they work on their Govt paid salaries. Their company & job is somewhat secured even if they don’t secure a contract which is not the case with private western firms. Their way of doing it is to get the damn deal at any cost. M2K upgrade, C-17, C-130, MMRCA shortlist etc etc will get added to that list in the future :diablo:

quoting your own post from IAF thread

They certainly suffer from a lack of drive which can only be provided by profit motive. Which can only provided by privatising all DPSUs.

Instead of the Su 30 India could have perhaps chosen the Mirage or the MIG 29, they wanted something better, An F 15 E would have done just as well.

IAF had the chance of getting the Mirage-200-5 in the mid-90s. But they did not! They did not consider it worth when compared to developing the Su-30MKI. There is a lot of talk on how the IAF love the M2K and how the M2K-5 was the actual MMRCA etc. But that is not the real stuff. As said earlier, if IAF wanted they could have bought the fully developed and flying M2K-5, but they did not and instead went to develop the Su-30MKI. When the need for additional multi-role aircraft came in, it was to replenish or more so to add more multi-role aircrafts into the IAF fleet as early as possible with the least cost possible. The only multi-role a/c available at that time which will not add another type (& hence more logistical nightmare) to the IAF was the M2K-5. But the new built M2K-5 cost was too high and so the plan was to get the old M2K from the French stock and to upgrade it to the M2K-5 standard. Few frames were to be converted to dash5 standard by Dassault and the rest were to be converted inhouse. It was beneficial for both IAF & French as IAF would be getting a good multi-role a/c at a decent price where as the French could focus on getting the Rafale to fill in the place of M2K.

The Mirage is even its present form more capable than the Bison, the Bison can fire Active Radar AAM but it has a puny radar to full take advantage of the R-77. The Mirage is inferior to the MKI and the upgraded MIGs, the proposed upgrade will make them a solid match for anything in IAF service including the Su 30. Its certainly the most loved IAF fighter.

Bison does have BVR as well as in WVR advantage over the M2K currently with its R-77 & R-73. Make no doubt on that. The Upgradation might change that in M2K favour. Even the old MiG-29 radar had better raid discrimination compared to the M2K radar and Kopyo is a better unit than the old MiG-29 sets.

Regarding the most loved fighter. Its something that is promoted by some guys for reasons best known to them….. Few things that the guys who promote such things should know are –
A pilot loves the aircraft he fly!
For a pilot his aircraft is his LIFE-PARTNER. More so in combat!
A pilot who does not love his aircraft can never fight with it!

Coming back to the IAF, do you know how many M2K pilots are there at a time in IAF? Or what percentage of M2K make of IAF combat fighter fleet? Yes we all can guess. So there are more pilots who love aircraft other than M2K. But Good pilots admire other aircraft and the bad ones fail to do it. So there will be many who admire the M2K for its beauty and like wise for other aircrafts. Talks of special love of aircraft seems to have originated from a former M2K pilots article.

Many take the M2K performance at Kargil as the base for IAF loving it over other types. But let me tell you, M2K were not bombing the hills round the clock. In an interview the Southern Air Command had talked very highly of the professionalism of the IAF and how the IAF had operated in the most demanding circumstances. In that interview he did mention little bit about the M2K operations and in that he mentioned the window of opportunity. It was a short 3 hours from 7am to 10am during which the M2K carried out the strikes as per him. I’m recollecting it from what I saw on TV few years back. If you got any doubt on it or have more interests on that interview, you can contact DD for their video archive for the past 5 years. What I remember correctly is that the interview was with the Southern Air Commands chief on the eve of Air Force Day. His name or the year I forgot.

My friend TR-1 posted links to Wings of Russia documentary, Russian made documentary which is translated into English which shows the history of Russian aviation. Apart from a few ingenious designs and solutions, they also admitted the Russians lagged behind in terms of electronics/avionics etc, even from the time of the MIG 15/Sabre battles. Russians make good (i think the best) airframes but their avionics is always a bit behind.

Anything translated from Russia to English also depends on the individuals understanding from the translation. Translation are not very accurate.

In the case of electronics & avionics Russia did lag but try to understand it little more. Any avionics have got two practical parts to it – Hardware & Software. Soviet Russia lagged in the hardware and in that miniaturization. For instance start from the IC, PCB etc. Due to lack of miniaturization on the base level the final product becomes larger & heavier compared to their western counterparts. The result is that for the same performance level the Russian units were heavier & larger. The good part to it is, when the MiG-21, MiG-29s are upgraded with new avionics, there are more space in the airframe for more fuel or avionics. For instance the MiG-21 added around 500+ liters of additional fuel after the upgradation. Russia have always enjoyed the edge in software and this was due to the shortcoming in hardware miniaturization. Due to the size disadvantage, they focused on better architecture in software and were able to keep up with their counterparts and in cases better results than their western counterparts like the AD missiles etc.

There was an articles on the superior architecture employed by the Russians in the acoustics also. Again I don’t remember it where and what it was, but I remember it was related to acoustics from a western manufacturer. In the article it mentioned about clarity of the data reception (that was not available before) as they employ the better architecture that the Russians had developed for their own acoustics usages for sonars & intercoms etc. If i get the article I’ll post it.

The Bison IMO is very capable but putting it in the League of any Mirage 2000 is stretching it a bit too far.

Let the M2K have its upgrade, till then Bison will enjoy the edge over the M2K.

:rolleyes:So when you cannot match a good article you get down to discrediting the source. Yes it was in code one magazine, but the truth of the matter is that the claims by the pilot with regards to his flying hours on both platforms is likely to be true.

Is it me or the author of that article who is discrediting the designers/pilots who have claimed the MiG-29s to be a real good dog-fighter?? His article looks like it was written with the sole purpose of discrediting a magnificent fighter. And its a joke to read on how a Pilot after having 500 hours on MiG-29 still finds it not comparable to the F-16 in response to his stick & pedal inputs. That was the focus of my response. And I quoted the Indian MiG-29 pilots experience with their MiG-29s in a STILL CLASSIFIED combat duet with Mirage-2000. The Indian pilots were using the same kind of stick & pedals but got completely different result than the author of that article. So you tell me, is the MiG-29 dumb or the pilot who did not learn to fly the MiG-29 the dumbo??

As for the Mirage 2000, the Greeks will tell you that if they don’t get the F 16 initially the situation from then on is in the Vipers favour in a dogfight, so you are comparing two machines which are inferior to the Viper one may be better than the other yes 😉

I can’t say for the Greeks. But IAF bought the Mirage-2000 for air-superiority when the PAF got their F-16s. But then it dawned upon them that M2K was on an equal footing with the F-16 and what they wanted was something which had a clear upper hand against the PAF’s F-16. That is how the MiG-29s came in. To have a definite edge over the PAF’s F-16. IAF got the confirmation of their choice being spot-on when they pitted MiG-29s against the then best Air-Superiority fighter of the IAF, M2k.

And the IAF review was just a dog fight, it did not pit the radar/electronics/missiles into equation, rather old fashioned that i would say.

NO!
The article of Air Marshal Harish Masand (former Wing Commander of No28 First Supersonics) says the evaluation included the radar & others. In his article he does mentions that the MiG-29s did just fine with their
radar & other sensors against the M2K. But his article was focused mainly on the flight performance. He did say that it was a classified duet and he did not reveal any figures for it. So it is still classified.

In case you want to have the full details (if we Indian’s are lucky), we can wait till the upgradation of MiG-29 & M2K is complete. So around 2020 we can send in a request to the MoD to declassify the details of that duet that is with the IAF.

Why would you take the IAFs word as Gold standard ? They have only recently started exercising with the Viper, and their favourite aircraf tremains the Mirage 2000. They are choosing a western MRCA, and if any one in the west would have given them the oippurtunity the Russians did with the FGFA they would have gone for it.

Even the shortlist have the clear indication that it was a political decision & maybe even commisions. They made sure that L1 was not present in the short-list. So that the L2 & L3 can become the L1 & L2. Now siince the MiG-35 is not there, neither EF-2000 nor the Rafale will need to worry a lot about reducing their price considerably as both are almost equal, with Rafale having an advantage.

Would India have choosen the Su 30 back then if U.S India relations were good and U.S was offering Brand New Eagles with a great deal of freedom, I doubt that.

:diablo:

Yes! India would have chosen the Su-30 after the Su-30s roasted the F-15 ar$e over Pokhran :diablo:

Kramer had posted something related to the MiG-29 Vs F-16 during Kargil conflict in IN discussion. IAF discussion is a place this definitely should have been.

a similar situation arose during the Kargil war in 1999 and 2 F-16s were locked onto by a single IAF MiG-29..in the words of PAF Air Cmde Kaiser Tufail

I have been out of the PAF for a few years now- and in some respects have as much access to sources now as some civvie aviation fanatics- but still do retain contacts which give me the inside scoop sometimes.

Here’s my unbiased opinion on what happened in this incident. First some disclaimers- the IAF NEVER gave Chibber a big gallantry award- this was a routine award for a job well done- like an Air Medal in the USAF- not an award in the league of a Medal of Honor or DFC! Secondly, in this particular occasion, the PAF was bested- there, I said it- there’s no shame in it- there have been many occasions in the past conflicts of 1965 and 1971 when it was the other way around- any professional pilot will tell you that success and failure are two sides of the same coin- anyone who claims to be invincible is lying or an adolescent amatuer masquerading as a professional. To lay this story to rest- and though the PAF is understandably not keen to trumpet it around town- those in the know know- lets keep it at that, so I’m not exactly revealing any state secrets.

The PAF in Kargil was NEVER tasked to aggressively counter the IAF (forget the crap about them being scared)- it was very much an Army (read Musharraf) show- with even the civilian leadership in the dark about some aspects. Our friendly neighborhood tinpot dictator (Musharraf) then looked for scrapegoats- so he got rid of Nawaz and then turned on the PAF for not doing its job (bull****!!!) by firing much of its top brass recently. Forgive me for digressing, but as someone who dedicated his life to the service of Pakistan, I hate to see it falling back into dictatorship. But the key message is- the PAF was never under orders to engage the IAF, unless they crossed the LOC. On this occasion, I gather the Indian MiG-27s did cross the LOC briefly and the local NLI commander who was having the crap bombed out of him called in desparately for support- the PAF, which had been frustrated at having to sit it out till now, saw an opportunity to bloody the IAF nose as they were reported to have crossed the LOC. Two Falcons on alert were vectored into the MiGs, but received the jolt of their lives when an IAF MiG-29 locked onto BOTH of them (to answer the ongoing debate I see on this aspect of the IAF Mig-29s capability). They tried to break lock- but the MiG persisted, and while I do agree they could have pressed home- there were some controlling factors:
1) strict orders not to cross the LOC
2) Hell, they thought they were about to get a salvo of R-27s up their noses…as an aside, one of the Falcon pilots was a greenhorn and was pretty shaken by this experience- got razzed to death for weeks afterwards.
What would have happened if the Falcons had pressed home- who knows???? The MiG had a definite BVR edge and in close combat with the R-73/HMS, all bets are off. Plus, if the Falcons did cross the LOC, they would have been fair game to any other MiG-29s lurking about as they would no longer be over friendly terriotory- sometimes discretion is the better part of valour, n’est c’est pas?

The score could well have ended up being 2-0 in the favour of MiG-29s !;)

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1801556&postcount=279

Its a shame, if true, that the MiG-29 pilot was not honored with a medal.

Re: Mig-29 vs F-16 discussion…looks like some Indian “experts” here don’t even know their own history.

Pakistani F-16A did not (refused to) engage Indian Mig-29A during the 1999 conflict. I wonder why?…. considering they were of the same generation.

Kramer had posted something related to it in the Indian Navy discussion

a similar situation arose during the Kargil war in 1999 and 2 F-16s were locked onto by a single IAF MiG-29..in the words of PAF Air Cmde Kaiser Tufail

I have been out of the PAF for a few years now- and in some respects have as much access to sources now as some civvie aviation fanatics- but still do retain contacts which give me the inside scoop sometimes.

Here’s my unbiased opinion on what happened in this incident. First some disclaimers- the IAF NEVER gave Chibber a big gallantry award- this was a routine award for a job well done- like an Air Medal in the USAF- not an award in the league of a Medal of Honor or DFC! Secondly, in this particular occasion, the PAF was bested- there, I said it- there’s no shame in it- there have been many occasions in the past conflicts of 1965 and 1971 when it was the other way around- any professional pilot will tell you that success and failure are two sides of the same coin- anyone who claims to be invincible is lying or an adolescent amatuer masquerading as a professional. To lay this story to rest- and though the PAF is understandably not keen to trumpet it around town- those in the know know- lets keep it at that, so I’m not exactly revealing any state secrets.

The PAF in Kargil was NEVER tasked to aggressively counter the IAF (forget the crap about them being scared)- it was very much an Army (read Musharraf) show- with even the civilian leadership in the dark about some aspects. Our friendly neighborhood tinpot dictator (Musharraf) then looked for scrapegoats- so he got rid of Nawaz and then turned on the PAF for not doing its job (bull****!!!) by firing much of its top brass recently. Forgive me for digressing, but as someone who dedicated his life to the service of Pakistan, I hate to see it falling back into dictatorship. But the key message is- the PAF was never under orders to engage the IAF, unless they crossed the LOC. On this occasion, I gather the Indian MiG-27s did cross the LOC briefly and the local NLI commander who was having the crap bombed out of him called in desparately for support- the PAF, which had been frustrated at having to sit it out till now, saw an opportunity to bloody the IAF nose as they were reported to have crossed the LOC. Two Falcons on alert were vectored into the MiGs, but received the jolt of their lives when an IAF MiG-29 locked onto BOTH of them (to answer the ongoing debate I see on this aspect of the IAF Mig-29s capability). They tried to break lock- but the MiG persisted, and while I do agree they could have pressed home- there were some controlling factors:
1) strict orders not to cross the LOC
2) Hell, they thought they were about to get a salvo of R-27s up their noses…as an aside, one of the Falcon pilots was a greenhorn and was pretty shaken by this experience- got razzed to death for weeks afterwards.
What would have happened if the Falcons had pressed home- who knows???? The MiG had a definite BVR edge and in close combat with the R-73/HMS, all bets are off. Plus, if the Falcons did cross the LOC, they would have been fair game to any other MiG-29s lurking about as they would no longer be over friendly terriotory- sometimes discretion is the better part of valour, n’est c’est pas?

The score could well have ended up being 2-0 in the favour of MiG-29s !;)

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1801556&postcount=279

Interesting pic of a Abrams tank trying to squash an Iraqi Mig-25

where did you get that from? …. Aleksey already is having one on that.

http://gurkhan.blogspot.com/2011/10/25.html