Some doom and gloom

So, is the Project 20380 really canceled? Will they only build the units they currently have under construction, and then start all over again with a new design? Is the design a “failure”?

From the start itself it looked shaky considering it was selected (i think so) due to the hold the SDB had with the establishment. To me the Gepard from ZDB always looked like a better unit.

If they have actualy cancelled the 20380, then it has to be the Gepard class which is likely to get in. Hope it gets in. Below some picture of Vietnamese Gepards.

Same question with the Project 677 – the author appears to assume that the Project 636 is being procured for the Black Sea Fleet due to Project 677’s technical problems branding it an irredeemable “failure”.

It can’t be a failure…. my feeling is that Russian Navy prefers larger double-hulled subs like kilos. I’ll post something on that in a new thread…

If true, what does this say about Russia’s shipbuilding industry, where the new designs they’ve introduced are, so far – (allegedly) rubbish?

The problem facing the Russian shipyards are basically financial & management related rather than technological as the Govt have no funding for new ships & for modernizing the old ones. To make things worse Govt chose the easiest way to import rather than to invest in local development….this in turn also creates the notion that Russian shipyards/ design bureaus have lost all their capability.

Take for instance the Railways. They simply chose to order from Siemens rather than developing the Sokol that Almaz had developed but did not meet their target of 250km/h and needed further development (finance, finance finance), so the stupids at Railway ministry did a very short-term benifit of saving the development cost by closing the doors on the ingenious effort. Contract with Siemens also had political as Putin wanted to help Germany & Schroder which in turn buys political support…

The same thing is getting repeated in the case of Mistrals. Its not that Russia lacks the technological capablity. But with ~1.3billion, they are buying French political support and a card to play in the future.

Ideally India should consider partnering up with the Japanese for this project, given they both seem to be thinking on similar lines wrt the design and are at a similar stage of development. The South Koreans would have been another possiblity before they signed the agreement with Indonesia.

Yup agree…. Japan has to be a partner. But i would prefer the Jv to have India, Japan & Russia.

1) HAL etc
2) Mitsubishi etc (composites, they are the top rated… there was a good documentary on Japanese televison few years back on MRJ and their comparison. They considered their composites better than those of Bombardier who is also building jets in the class of MRJ. And they showed the Bombardier chief (if I’m not wrong) giving thumps-up for the Mitsubishi composites….)
3) RAC-MiG (one of the most experienced a/c maker and they can contribute a lot for a reliable & less risky project).

What did they get out of it? PiBu’s article says that the Europeans were forced out due to changes in Russian law.

I don’t think Europeans was serious with that project anyway and was just using the Russians to test systems for their projects. After all Russia is a place were high quality talent can be utilised at a fraction of the cost.

Russia have very high quality engineers and among the finest of instrumentation (without which no development work progress), which are two important components required for any project development. Whats missing in Russia for these development are two other components – 1) finance & 2) political will (which is due to lack of 1)

So i still feel it was just a temp collaboration. If the Europeans were truly interested and genuine to such projects, then we would have seen the An-70 having large orders as an example of European genuineness. But it did not happen and Europe went forward with A400 to keep its “pride”.

Just fun-art.

That designer certainly posses creativity but doesn’t have a clue about ships.

I would like to differ…..my understanding of creativity (atleast in the case of machines) is that it has to be practical and useful. How can something that does not meet these two criteria become creative???

Is that what was offered for the rumoured S800/1000 designs with Navantia for the Indian Navy in the past?

The so called Italian submarine is a Russian lada calss with the following –

1) Fuel-Cell AIP (which the Italians have got licence from the Germans, if I’m not wrong)
2) Combat management system modified (or will be modified) so that Italian companies get to do business by offering their torpedoes as standard.)

and maybe few others in propulsion department like Diesel engine, electric motors, battery etc.

In short Italians want to capture a good market with Russian base, like how they made M346 from the Russian Yak-130. Now the M346 is in a better position than the Yak-130, atleast in terms of sales…

No ice in a floating basin of shipyard situated in the rivermouth, doesn’t mean there’s no ice in the sea. She can’t do sea trials in the basin.

Snake, you can see from the below picture (anf other picture during launch) that there was no ice covering in that “gulf” that is Sevmash shipyard area. I’m talking about the area outside the Sevmash yard. Is it really possible that the river mouth will not get frozen when the sea can? Its a little hard to believe.

Also, if we take the pictures from 2005 when Gorshkov was moved into the Sevmash basin, around mid-2005, then also there was no ice formation. Correct me if I’m wrong. I could not see any ice..

So If I’m right then the sea trials (atleast limited propulsion test, if all other works are finished) could start as early as june-july, like some engine runs etc. Though i could not be sure.

A clearer picture regarding the icing of the waters around the area would be better in understanding when the trials will move at full steam.

Is this the IN ex-Gorshkov ???

Yes it is and that picture is from Nov-Dec 2009 when she was floated out of the dock.

Anyway my last response on the topic. PM me if you want to talk tanks 🙂

Arjun costs more than the T 90 as well so no point in ordering an inferior and more expensive tank/ Arjun kicked ass in the trials and made a reluctant army order more.

can you give me more details regarding the tests?

From looking at close up images i’d say with a great deal of certainty that this jet was hand built. What happened to the robotic assembly line? Any pics of them being put together?

I hope it was meant as a joke.

Cost of robotic “work” hours will be much higher than human work hours. Moreover, robotic assembly is usually made (mostly) to reduce the production cost by increasing the production rate with the minimal of humans (salary etc saved). For building a prototype, robotic assembly is also impractical…

They come in only after a set of procedures have been finalised so that the robots can do the specific work that has been “punched” for them.

Mi-38 is a JV with Kazan, Mil Moscow Helicopter Plant, EADS/Eurocopter and Pratt & Whitney of Canada. Meanwhile, India has asked Russia to partner it in the development of a 10t-class battlefield helicopter to replace Mil Mi-24/25/35s. (= gunship + assault transport)

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2004/01/06/175847/euromils-mi-38-collaboration-makes-first-flight.html
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2007/01/30/211795/india-seeks-russian-help-with-combat-helicopter.html

Mi-38 is a Russian project and the Europeans joined it for their own benefit and when they got it they left. Leaving the Russians look like fools. Thats it. Pratt & Whitney is just trying their luck to get into the lucrative Russian helicopter market. If they can get onboard the Mi-38, a whole world of upgrade market will open up for them. Earlier BAe (?) have had some luck with their westernised Mi-171 and PW is looking for the engine market.

I was talking about this concept which is underdevelopment. A google search gave me these, originally from Austin.