mrmalayaare people really still scared of communism these days?:confused:
maybe, (and i’m being generous here) something was lost in translation?
mrmalayanow this from the DEW line blog on FLight Global:
“Meanwhile, back in Paris, the Armee de l’Air leaks to French newsweekly Air & Cosmos, providing a few more tidbits about what happened between the Raptor and the Rafale at the Al Dhafra exercise late last year. According to Air & Cosmos’ sources, the USAF requested only two training sorties between the F-22 and the Rafale of three engagements each, with one-on-one combat within visual range. [In other words, the USAF says, “If you don’t turn on your Spectra system, we won’t turn on our ALR-94.”] “
😉
mrmalayai’ve been wondering about this too.
it seems likely that the Royal Navy is going to have to trade some of its nuclear capability to keep the two carriers, and this made me think airlaunched and tactical for the deterrent.
But i now see its not much of a deterrent…
mrmalayaok, thanks.
so are we working on the assumption that a UCAV can move some mud but not do a2a? That seems likely to me.
Replica’s shape was optimised (so i have recently read) for a2g, although as far as we know it wasn’t a flying aircraft. I think it was a bit more than a radar model though. Wasn’t it supposed to prove that the UK was capable of being a tier 1 partner in JSF by showing we would know how to design and build a stealthy aircraft ourselves….
which means that the UK must lead “5th Generation” aircraft know-how in europe?
All the research that went into FOAS and Replica will have lead to a wealth of LO testing and research (just remember how many stealthy images BAE were producing in the mid 90’s).
mrmalayai understood that russia had won the libyan deal. This from the BBC yesterday:
“Mr Putin gave no details of the arms covered by the contract. Russian media speculated earlier that it might include fighter planes.
“Yesterday a contract worth 1.3bn euros was signed,” Mr Putin announced at a meeting near Moscow with the director of the Russian small-arms manufacturer Izhmash, which makes the Kalashnikov assault rifle.
“These are not just small-arms.”
Mr Putin gave no further details. However, according to a military diplomatic source quoted earlier by Russian news agencies, the deal included fighter aircraft, tanks and a sophisticated air defence system.
“
although i not that there is nothing concrete about aircraft, and i’m not counting libya as a stable customer (nor should Dassault. I would say that the aircraft are only a guaranteed sale when they are actually in service in this case).
mrmalayait occurs to me that there is a requirement to replace the GR4 in this timeframe (FOAS as was), for which a lot of work has already been done.
Please remind me though (i’ve been out things for a year or two), is this manned, unmanned, a mix of types or on ice at the moment?
Replica was optimised for a2g wasn’t it? afterall it drew on work for the failed BAE MDD JAST/JSF bid.
Adding an excellent avionics and engine package (Typhoon) into a stealthy frame may already have been done…?
Update me please…:o
mrmalayaI have spent many hours pondering this question since i last posted.
In the case of the Typhoon, I believe that an upgraded fuselage (TVC, removing or shrinking the vertical fin and blending a “big wing” into a fuselage weapons bay), is actually the most likely step into the “5th Generation” (don’t have a fit, I’m just talking about removing the big reflectors which mark out pre stealth designs from the F22 and F35 when i use the term “5th Generation”).
Lets say that governments are looking to spend more on schools and hospitals in the next 5-10 years, then a programme which apparently makes savings by using the same avionics and engine programes as Typhoon would be attractive to manufacturer and customer alike.
I was told years ago that use of the EJ230 and Typhoon avionics would allow a highly capable stealth aircraft to be produced for cheap….
mrmalayathe main thing to remember about this post is, that it takes a long time for europe to develop aircraft jointly.
so we are talking about a projected threat in 15-20 years time, from anyone who has an aircraft like this coming up against Euro canards.
My gut is that there will be another project in development by then, I just wondered whether the PAK-FA will provide the stimulous to kick off discussion.
As they say on Ares, we have to assume a product version would be properly stealthy, although i would suggest this design looks potentially stealthier than any Euro Canards (even though they have wonderful avionics etc).
And it is interesting to hear that Typhoon is finally an accepted measure of Frontal Stealth;)
mrmalayai would like to add EJ230 and TVC to the radar along with a certain Meteor missile
mrmalayathis is a link to an assessment of the T50 based on the imagery available.
I’m great at the technical stuff…:o
mrmalayaso essentially you are saying that Stealth isn’t important and that by the time PAK-FA comes into service (lets say 2020 for example) Typhoon (zeus knows i love her) and Rafale will be alright because they will have excellent weapons and avionics.
thats nice, but what happens by 2025?
Lets assume that the Russians know what they are doing. Is it best to say that the technology we may put into our current systems is as good as what they (or their customers) will put into their future systems? Afterall you might see this LO supermanoeuvrable PAK-FA with European systems in the hands of an aggressor by the time the non-LO euro-canards are into their 3rd decade of service.
mrmalayai didn’t phrase my point about hospitals very well.
what i meant was that the UK isn’t going to stop spending on defence just because its chronically in debt! that would be silly;)
ring fencing the NHS is one thing, but stopping new defence technology because Russia isn’t going to invade us is totally different.
i agree that Tranche 3 and the like has got to be more secure now, and I also agree that at some point we will have to accept that defence companies must have thought about what comes next.
Its bizarre to suggest that we (Europe as a whole, NATO or just the UK) can afford to sit back and not replace aircraft in 15 years time.:confused:
The UK for one does not react simply to threats to its borders, and the point of the thread was essentially “does the reality of the PAK-FA mean that European arms manufacturers and governments have to look beyond Typhoon, Rafale and Gripen?”
mrmalayai do think that this will continue to sort which countries place importance on staying capable of airframe production and which ones decide to make do with the F35 and 4th generation systems.
Some countries do not have the will to continue to fund defence and its a question of whether EADS, BAE and Dassault have the ability to keep up.
There was another thread about a 5th Generation SAAB fighter, which I didn’t really buy.
I do think for these companies that its more a case of either playing catch up with Stealth manned fighters or taking the “next step” whatever that may be.
mrmalayai suppose you could point to Replica if you wanted to say that we could create an airframe quickly, but how much more than a radar model was that project anyway?
I have heard it argued that putting Tranche 3 (and the Rafale equivalent) systems into a stealthy airframe would make for quite an aircraft. Afterall we have got the hang of highly agile aircraft and their systems.
Its true to say that some operations will be taken over by systems like Neuron and Taranis, but in A2A no one is yet talking about UCAVs really.
Giving Rafale and Typhoon the Silent Eagle treatment might go some way to addressing the gap, but if you think that Hospitals are going to take priority over defence I think you are wrong (particularly in the UK). Afterall, if it were all about making poverty history before you bought expensive systems then India would be buying spowith camels!
mrmalayaok,
i can see that some people think that Europe is now bankrupt and that there will be no new airframe development for decades (which is how long it would take to field a new system by the way, I’m not expecting a pan-european agreement to be signed tomorrow!!!).
Essentially you are saying that the swedish, french and Eurofighter nations will stop producing aircraft at the cutting edge and make do with system upgrades…?
I think Typhoon and Rafale in their ultimate forms will be very competitive but not in 12-15 years time, when the F35B will be ubiquitous and PAK-FA technology fielded by Russian, China (if they haven’t got their own programme up and running yet) and India. Not to mention potential Korean or Japanese systems.
In your world Europe will not be able to compete?
Sign In
