ajay_ijnI dont think the Americans would emphasize on the highlighted point a lot . .
Didnt quite see them make noises about Pakistan modding their F-16s for Strategic weapons delivery . .
Only thing that they did, was agree to supply Pakistan with more F-16s !! Advanced ones at that ! đŽ
I thought that was the main reason for US to cancel more F-16 orders in 1980s. they shipped soya beans to pakistan for the payments they made for viper.:D
ajay_ijnwill Aero India F-16 block 60s attack India anytime?
As the F-16 fighter roars into the skies of Bengaluru at the Aero India 09 show, all attention is on the wonderful aerobatics display it puts up, not on the tiny flag of the United Arab Emirates (UAE) on its tail. But the fact is, two of the four F-16s brought here by Lockheed Martin belong to the UAE Air Force.
Two intriguing questions immediately arise: Firstly, were these aircraft flown, perhaps just days ago, by combat pilots from the Pakistani Air Force (PAF), which has long sent its officers on deputation to fly UAE fighters? Would these very aircraft, now here on a sales pitch by Lockheed Martin, have been bombing India in the event of a war with Pakistan?
Senior Indian Air Force (IAF) officers have confirmed to Business Standard that, in any war with India, Pakistan could field up to two squadrons of F-16 aircraft borrowed from Arab nations, where its pilots are posted on deputation.
Air Commodore Jasjit Singh, who won a Vir Chakra in combat in 1971 and went on to head the Institute for Defence Studies and Analysis, points out, âThis has happened regularly. In 1965, the Jordanian Air Force supplied F-104 Starfighters to Pakistan, one of which was even shot down by the IAF. In 1971, Turkey and Iran had supplied F-86 Sabres to the PAF. I wouldnât rule out a repeat of this kind of help.â
Air Marshal Vinod Patney, the top air force field commander during the Kargil conflict, also believes the UAE Air Force F-16s could be used against India.
He reasons, âThere are Pakistani pilots there in the UAE: fact. They are flying their F-16s: fact. There is a close military relationship between those countries: fact. I would not rule out Islamic solidarity coming into play in the event of a war with India.â
Clearly visible on the UAE Air Force F-16s on display in Bangalore is an extra fuel tank, just above the wing, specially built for the batch of F-16s ordered by the UAE. The IAF believes UAE asked Lockheed Martin for the extra range to allow the Pakistani pilots in the UAE to reach Indian targets, deliver their weapons, and then fly to a Pakistani base from where they could operate for the rest of the war.
Air Chief Marshal SC Tyagi, the IAF chief until 2007, recounts, âIn the Arab-Israeli war in 1967, Pakistani pilots even flew Jordanian and Iraqi fighter aircraft in combat missions against the Israeli Air Force. One Bengali pilot from East Pakistan shot down two Israeli Mystere jets during that war. There was an agreement to help each other. But the world has moved on; itâs an open question whether such an agreement exists today.â
Lockheed Martin told Business Standard that they had no idea whether Pakistani pilots had recently flown the F-16s, now in Bangalore. Douglas Hartwick, CEO of Lockheed Martin India Pvt Ltd explained, âWe just leased these planes from the UAE Air Force.â
Indiaâs strategic community is concerned about F-16 aircraft being evaluated by India despite their being in service in Pakistan. Air Chief Marshal Fali Major, the air force chief, told a press conference at the Aero India that he was not concerned, as the IAF would equip the fighters that they bought (even if they were F-16s) very differently from the PAF, and use âhome-grownâ tactics while flying them. But when pressed on the issue he admitted, âI am not happy that someone else has something that I have. But thatâs the way the world works.â
though there is remote possibility, it would be literally impossible without US permission. and thats the reason US would have strict end-user agreements in place with its customers and with UAE already having advanced F-16, Uncle sam would be extra careful.
ajay_ijnYeah, about the American parts in the EF…
I am overwhelmed.
All that’s left, besides that one part produced in the US, are perhaps licenses, like IFF, GPS, weapon interface code, possibly RWR library data, etc.
Dependence on American parts though? Well, doesn’t look like that.
I think people refer to weapons package when they say Typhoon has US content, the AMRAAM, Paveway. Paveway can be replaced by israeli PGMs but then what about AMRAAM?, should wait untill Meteor comes out.
ajay_ijnMore Evidence for Growing Indo U.S Ties.
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2009/02/13/322508/aero-india-india-may-relaunch-attack-helicopter-contest.htmlI fear we are pissing off the Europeans a bit way too much.
yes thats pissing off me too, it would only add to more delays. BTW its only coz of Apache IAF wants to reissue RFP, not growing Indo-US ties.
because of bell, the 197 helicopter deal got cancelled, and now this. europe doesn’t strong candidate in attack category, but they should pursue more single vendor contracts, woo India by TOTs, JVs like Israel & Russia, thats the only way to please India. they are definitely moving in right direction with Kaveri with Eco core , LCA consultancy and even Maitri LLQRM. i agree with what you said before, India is likely to pursue even more joint ventures than just purchases.
ajay_ijnCommunists are never right. I think an American jet will be chosen regardless.
Actually Dassault and EADS are the ones showing half measures. MIG and the two American firms have been very active. So has been SAAB.
very active before media. but whatever happens behind , we will never know. You and I are not going select MMRCA contendors but those evaluation teams, IAF & MOD will. not bringing aircraft to AI doesn’t mean they are showing half measures.
ajay_ijnIndian Fighters: Expensive, Frustrating and Irresistible
Posted by Bill Sweetman at 2/11/2009 7:00 AM CST
after so many years of delay in putting up RFP, 8000 pages of proposal submitted by each bidder, they are saying that IAF has specified not many requirements. red-tape, bureauacracy are not only delaying the things but making the whole process more inefficient and imperfect.
ajay_ijnActually we have the Sukhois which can be modified for Nuclear Strike I believe. And in the future we will have the MCA and the PAK FA.
I think we were interested in the Backfire bombers for a while now. They are capable nuclear delivery platforms.
If we really need the MRCA to do the job, then lets choose the Rafale which was designed for the role. The presenting of the new draft means, both sides are willing to make concessions. This is good news for Indo-U.S relations.
The successful completion of the agreement which governs all future purchases will give the U.S planes added advantage.
I hope US Congress denies permission to Transfer of AESA technology to India. India is just not comfortable with these agreements. for once communist parties are right. TOT means more strict agreements which creates more problems for deal.
ajay_ijnAll a dropped vendor has to do is to leak out some sort of allegation of impropriety on the part of the customer to totally gum up the works and push back the deadlines while the politicians dick around with the allegations.
It’s in the customer’s best interest to make sure the competition is as transparent and well managed as possible.
no doubt indias aquisition process is highly inefficient, especially true in case of multivendor competitions. one can only pray that process will go smoothly without any delays. if US player is selected then India will take years to sort out all the TOT related agreements. but all MMRCA fighters are excellent, except for may be Mig-35. at the end of the day Indias mainly wants TOT, cuztomization, offsets etc. on the other hand 10 billion USD is nowhere enough for most contendors, So its likely that funding would be nearly doubled.
Su-30MKI was one successful programs india had in recent times. I just hope MMRCA will be like that.
ajay_ijnIndia signs End-User Verification Agreement with US for 3 Boeing Business Jets, allows US to inspect aircraft used by PM
http://www.telegraphindia.com/1090211/jsp/frontpage/story_10517250.jsp
Bangalore, Feb. 10: An American Golden Sentry will inspect aircraft that will fly the Indian President, Prime Minister, defence minister and very important persons to verify that the planes are not being misused.
The head of the US military sales agency disclosed here today that India has signed an End-User Verification Agreement (EUVA) for three Boeing Business Jets (BBJs) that it bought recently for the countryâs rulers. The third BBJ was delivered last month to the Indian Air Forceâs Headquarters Communications Squadron â as the VVIP squadron is called.
The EUVA is implemented through the Golden Sentry programme governed by the US defence department (the Pentagon) and the Blue Lantern programme governed by the state department. All direct foreign military sales are monitored by the Golden Sentry.
This week, India is also expected to present a new draft for an omnibus end-use and enhanced end-use verification programme, the Pentagonâs chief military sales officer and head of its defence security co-operation agency, Vice Admiral Jeffrey A. Wieringa, said here today.
âI was present at the meeting between Mr (A.K.) Antony and Mr Gates (US defence secretary) during the defence ministerâs visit to the US. The feeling I got was that we are very very close (to signing the agreement),â said the admiral.
âWe are delighted with your defence minister Antonyâs stand,â the admiral added. Antony was in the US from September 7 to 10 las year.
The Left had strongly objected to the EUVA when it partnered the UPA coalition and remains opposed to it even now. It alleges that India is signing away authority to the US that a sovereign country ought not to. After his US visit, Antony had said no contentious issue was discussed.
Wieringa also confirmed that the Golden Sentry had applied to and would apply to all military sales authorised by the US defence department to India. US inspection teams verify that the military platforms it has exported are being used for their stated purposes every year. Much of this involves on-site verification.
Some of the weapons platforms to which the Golden Sentry applies or will apply are the USS Trenton, now the INS Jalashva, the amphibious vessel with six onboard helicopters and landing craft, AN/TPQ 137 Firefinder weapons locating radars with the Indian Army, and six C-130J Hercules transport aircraft for the special forces.
A contract for eight P8i maritime surveillance aircraft by Boeing for the navy will be governed mainly by the Blue Lantern programme but its armaments will be under the Golden Sentry. A similar arrangement has been adopted for the VVIP jets.
The US deputy chief of mission, Steven J. White, said the US had EUV agreements with about 80 countries.
The cabinet committee on security has been looking into the EUV deal, a logistics support agreement and a communications interoperability security agreement, for two years. A forward movement was confirmed only today.
India has never disclosed that it had already entered into separate EUV agreements for each of its military acquisitions from the US. Wieringa said it was Delhi that wanted an omnibus agreement to avoid bureaucratic delays in drafting EUV agreements for each purchase. This is also indicative of a willingness in India to buy more US-made military equipment.
At Aero India, the military aviation show that begins here tomorrow, the US is the largest presence in terms of space with aircraft custom-made for India in the hope of winning tens of billions of dollars worth of orders, including the prized $12.5-billion-plus deal for 126 multi-role combat aircraft.
there will be one immediate disadvantage for choosing US Fighters, India will not be able integrate nuclear warheads, atleast not without violating many clauses in those agreements. But in case of european aircraft, Mirage 2000 was the first aircraft modified to deliver nukes. i was also wondering how much cuztomization will US allow for their fighters.
ajay_ijnThe Light Combat Aircraft tests its teeth: a ringside account of an LCA bombing run – Ajai Shukla
what are those green bombs? the missile is R-73 i suppose, Litening pod in centerline and fuel tanks.
ajay_ijnajai_ijn, both the GE-F404 engines (F2J3 and IN-20) are for the first squadron and the 8 prototypes only. Thus, it is an interim engine only.
In my view, as EADs will provide extensive consultancy on Tejas, it can be safely assumed that their consultancy can best be executed & complimented on an EAD-produced engine itself i.e. Eurojet. Thus, GE-414 may not be selected.
AF chief was saying it should be easier to integrate. F414 is already based on F-404. what if EJ-200 is more difficult integrate because of different size and may take more time.
still there is an option for F414, you and I might wish or dream that US equipment won’t be selected but thats clearly not happening right now. It may be actually too late to wish for that.
ajay_ijnIndia to propose new end-user pact to US
âIndia is going to propose new draft for the end user agreement. My feeling is that we are very close,â deputy chief of the US mission in New Delhi Steven J. White told reporters here. White is in Bangalore for the seventh edition of the Aero India international air show Feb 11-15.
âIndia also wants a blanket understanding on the issue instead of matters being decided on a case-to-case basis as it causes a lot of delay,â White added.
Two cases in point are the purchases of three Boeing Business Jets for transporting the president, the prime minister and other dignitaries and the troop carrier INS Jalashwa (formerly the USS Trenton), for which end-use agreements have yet to be signed. This is because India is wary of their annual physical inspections as mandated by the pact.
White confirmed that Defence Minister A.K. Antony had raised the issue during his visit to the US last year .
âI was there at the meeting of (Robert) Gates (who continues as US defence secretary) and Antony. The US was delighted at the stand Antony took at the meeting,â White said, without divulging details.
White also asserted that the absence of an end-user agreement will not affect sales of military equipment and hardware to India, pointing out that âno significant issue had arisenâ though the pact was not in place when INS Jalashwa was purchased.
does US phsyically inspect every major weapon system every year for all her customers?
ajay_ijnFrom Power PC CPU´s, to carbom fibre, composites (Hexcel Composites, American), to pins, bolts (Avibank Mfg. Inc), valves, pressure switches (Eaton Aerospace Phelps), pression sensors (Goodrich Sensors & Integrated Systems), the ejector seat (Martin Baker Aircraft), the cabin pressure control systems (Liebherr-Aerospace Lindenberg GmbH), etc, etc, etc…
Has you see there are a lot of foreign content in the RAFALE.
Any european subsystems and components are very much ok for India. the main concern is US components which need regularly spares supply especially during war time.
ajay_ijnIf Rafale has even “miniscule” US content, it too cannot be inducted ino the IAF.
French would know what India wants, they would offer european alternative for even a miniscule US content.
however there is always a chance that Babus wud sumbit themselves to Uncle Sam. Its the power of Uncle Sam Lobby you see, the same lobby which got India into NSG.
Thus, as none of the 6 contenders are useful in any way to the IAF, the IAF must concentrate on the development of the Tejas Mk.II and have it inducted as the MRCA.
Tejas itself has US engine. and it would take time for Mk2 to fly and reach induction point.
even that version might have F414.
ajay_ijnFind me yet a single other piece of equipment on the Typhoon which is US supplied and requires US approval!
Its primary weapons like AIM-120, Paveway, JDAM. may be even Brimstone.
Sign In
