XN923I carefully worded it range/payload, a B17 could only carry about 4,000 lb to Berlin – what could a B24 carry there ??
cheers baz
About 5,000lb.
Both could carry about 8,000lb for missions of about half that range.
Both were of course in the ‘medium bomber’ range by RAF standards.
XN923The B17 was also easy to fly and land,some people might say a bit too stable but that helped during formation flying.
The B17 did not carry much of a bombload on long range missions and indeed was called a ‘medium’ bomber by the B24 crews who had much greater range/payload but not such easy handling.
However the B17 was/is ‘elegant’
B-24 carried about the same payload as the B-17, slightly more on short range missions, and was a little faster. It had significantly greater range but was more lightly built and therefore less able to survive significant damage.
We’re a bit off the subject of von Richthofen though.
XN923Just about the only common factor between fact and film is the name,their last mission was actually fairly straight forward,please note I am not trying to denigrate the crew in any way,just flying was dangerous enough.
cheers baz
It’s also worth noting however that the B-17’s toughness was legendary – though MB did stretch even that reputation somewhat. I find it best not to view Memphis Belle as a remake of the William Wyler documentary but a general tribute to the men and machines of the 8th Air Force. Using that particular aircraft is a little misleading really, but it helped to get the film made.
Going back to von Richthofen, I can’t help thinking that making another film about him is perpetuating the myth somewhat, and it would be much nicer to have a film about, say, Voss, Immelmann or Lanoe Hawker. It’s all about bums on seats at the end of the day though isn’t it? A good ‘modern’ theme might be Leefe-Robinson, who while on home defence duty, shot down a Zeppelin, was promptly awarded the VC and made into an overnight hero, promoted above his experience, sent to France as a Flight Commander with 48 Squadron with the new Bristol Fighter where he was just as promptly shot down by scouts of von Richthofen’s Jasta 11. He was captured and saw out the rest of the war as a PoW despite numerous escape attempts, survived the war but died in the subsequent flu pandemic. Undoubtedly a hero, just not the hero he was made out to be.
XN923Agreed!
Which is why I didn’t see a lot of harm in “Flyboys” (or “Pearl Harbour” or even the “Memphis Belle” remake) even though it was severly criticized here….(though I expect more for the lack of U.K. content as any aeronautical, technical or historical errors).
‘Flyboys’ wasn’t too bad, it was enjoyable enough but I don’t agree with letting film-makers get away with any old tosh just because it ‘introduces a new audience’ to the subject matter we love. ‘Pearl Harbor’ was an insult to veterans, British, American and Japanese.
When it comes to UK content, I don’t mind a lack thereof unless it’s something like Objective Burma or that risible U-boat flick that unfairly write other Allied nations out of the picture. Then there’s when there is UK content.. In Flyboys it was stuck-up RFC officers refusing to share bar space with their allies. In Pearl Harbor it was a glum and defeatist RAF officer expressing a wish for more pilots like (dyslexic loudmouth) Ben Affleck…
…Anyway, isn’t the Red Baron film a German production?
XN923I can never really understand why the fact that Von Richtofen’s score contains many vulnerable reconnaissance aircraft somehow counts against him. That was precisely his task as a scout pilot, during the early part of the war. The war was essentially a ground based war, the artillery demanded slow flying spotting aircraft for the guns and it was the task of the Jastas to shoot those aircraft down…..and of course vice versa for the RFC…
To an extent… but for the majority of the war, the RFC used far more offensive tactics than the German air force. The ethos of the RFC began very much as an army co-operation force (it was part of the army, after all), and most of their work was over the lines, whereas German aircraft ventured over the lines far more rarely. German scouts were generally used to deal with artillery spotting and recon missions (and later bombing), while British scouts were increasingly called upon to protect the vulnerable aircraft doing the ‘real’ work. This is not to say that no Germans attacked the British lines, just that the tactics were vastly different, the Germans far more defensive.
This is nothing against von Richthofen – militarily, he was absolutely right. He aimed for the maximum of damage with the minimum of risk – the essence of warfare. He was also packaged as a hero for propaganda purposes. He was also no slouch in an aeroplane and incredibly shrewd. What he was not was an aerial Parsifal.
He really was a remarkable young man and an inspirational fighter leader and deserves better.
I agree with your first two assertions. As to what he deserves – doesn’t he deserve the truth? Don’t we all? I don’t see why we shouldn’t re-examine what was presented at the time. This is the ‘Historic Aviation’ forum and not the ‘Nostalgic Aviation’ forum after all.
XN923We’ll, that’s just the thing, you see…..Richthofen was a hero in Germany at the time… probably the hero. And if the aftermath and his funeral are anything to go by, his enemies thought exceptionaly highly of him too.
He is the most famous combat pilot in history, so I’m not sure what you’re asking…..
It’s pretty well accepted that von Richthofen was not as talented a pilot as, say, Voss, and that his extraordinary score of enemy aircraft destroyed had as much to do with his tactics. There’s no doubt that he was a genius at choosing his battles and always fighting from a postition of strength. As BarracudaFAA notes, most of von Richthofen’s victories were against vulnerable reconnaissance or artillery spotting aircraft. On the other hand, when it came to it, he could go up against the best and win in single combat – his duel with Lanoe Hawker is a case in point.
XN923The one immediately after the Blades pic (trust me the full size version of this is much better, but I really have to get the exposure sorted) is the Aerostars, a long running act using Yak-50s. Their displays are typically tight and interesting.
Just after that are two pics of a SA180 Silence Twister, part of the Swift Aerobatic team. They use one of three gliders, two of which are almost unbelievably aerobatic, the Twister, an Extra and a Piper Pawnee tug. Displays are never less than fascinating and those gliders have to be seen to be believed.
I was a little disappointed with my pics I have to say, with over 1000 taken only a handful were passable. Still, you live and learn. Partly the problems are with my equipment, but 90% is (to borrow and corrupt a sailing phrase) the nut on the end of the eyepiece.
XN923Let’s back them…
Always have and will continue to do so! Seriously, even as a slightly restrained display it was the best thing in the air at Farnborough – long may it continue, and let’s look forward to the next 50+ flights. I certainly don’t intend this to be the last time I see a Vulcan flying.
Wake up and smell the coffee
…Don’t think it was coffee…smelt more like… paraffin? 😉
XN923Now i know the displays are going to be a gentle and not as impressive as they used to be but i was bitterley dissapointed with the display.
After take off she did 3 flypasts and then landed. Don’t get me wrong it was fantastic to see her flying again and well done to all involved thankyou.
I’d been waiting for the Vulcan for a long time, same as you so I feel for you if the experience left you a bit empty. I went to Farnborough on the Sunday and whilst the display was not in the same league as the time I had seen XH558 previously, I would certainly not say I was disappointed.
It sounds like the display on Sunday was better than the one on Saturday, though it was fairly short. Speaking for myself, what I wanted to experience was the sight of the delta shape in the air, the sound of the Olympus engines, that shaking of the earth and the air in your lungs, and the sight of such a big aircraft with such unusual flying characteristics – sort of smoothly, powerfully graceful. I more or less got all of that, though there were only a couple of brief moments when the thunder of those jets could actually be felt as well as just heard. We were treated to steep, banking turns, topside and underside passes – four or five rather than three, and with some display of the aircraft’s agility for such a big airframe. Maybe the B1B was scared off – it only did two level flypasts. Pah!
The impression I get is that the hours on the four Olympuses are a precious commodity, so until a more stable source of money can be found, the full power take-offs and ‘standing on the tail’ manoeuvres that made the earlier displays so awesome are off the menu. Even so I don’t know of another aircraft that has such presence in the air – brooding and menacing, but graceful and beautiful. And it moves like nothing else on this earth.
XN923‘The Way to the Stars’. Cry – that John Pudney poem always gets me. Also laugh -John Mills in the funniest proposal ever ‘what I mean to say is… do you think you could take on 45 shillings?’ 😀
XN923XN923 you forgot the eagles from Space 1999 lol 😮
😀 And the Angels from Captain Scarlet!
XN923Blimey, any more SF references we haven’t made? I know, use a sonic screwdriver to disable the defences, then use the Quatermass II rocket’s nuclear second stage to irradiate the ****ers. Target the front door with the Liberator’s main cannon from Low Earth Orbit and the rear exit with gridfire from a Culture GSV in geostationary, to pick them off when they try to escape. Calibrate the Enterprise NX-01’s transporter slightly wrong so any that do get through can be beamed somewhere far away and deposited there as a bloody heap of mangled flesh. Take what’s left and send it down the stargate attached to the Io monolith. Then we can all party on the holodeck.
XN923Howabout a nice BIG (Blackburn) BOTHA
Are you thinking of making the housemates fly in it?
Now that would be dangerous
XN923the final Cylon is hiding in there…………. no way, Grace Park, Lucy Lawless etc, they are far too attractive to be stuck there….;)
All of this has happened before. All of this will happen again.
…Unfortunately 😡
XN923I arrived just after 8am and, perhaps unsurprisingly, experienced no problems – BUT, space at the crowdline was almost all gone, certainly left of the commentary tower which amazed me (especially as the gates weren’t even supposed to open until 8.30am). I hung around until about 6.45 before leaving, and got out fairly cleanly. Makes for a pretty long day though. It’s certainly been getting busier for the last three years. I may give it a miss next time and find a quieter show. Probably not though.
As far as the display was concerned, I thought it was pretty packed. The major disappointment for me was the Vimy – there didn’t seem to be a word about why it wasn’t there. That said, I enjoyed the variety (when I want warbirds, warbirds and more warbirds I go to Duxford). The Blades get better every year, the Breitlings were good as ever, and the RAF role demonstration was I thought much improved on last year. The vintage stuff was fairly varied, the DC6 being a highlight. The Hunter and Meteor were good too, not a mix I’ve seen before and different to your parade of Spits and Stangs. The Bleriot was delightful. I have a new admiration for anyone who would willingly fly across the Channel in something so delicate and obviously at the whim of every zephyr!
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