XN923‘Ships with Wings’ – an appalling film, but with some lovely footage of Swordfish and Skuas flying from Ark Royal (in the Med in 1940), and some land-based footage of Fulmars as well.
I just wish Ealing had given us an hour and a half of that wonderful footage that was obtained and left out the hideous plot, awful acting and ropey miniature work.
XN923No contest – a Vulcan display is total sensory overload and like watching the laws of physics and aerodynamics suspended. A Raptor may make a bit of noise and throw itself round the sky a bit but the display is no more impressive than a Typhoon or Fulcrum IMO.
Mustang? Pfft. OK I s’pose but 100 of them displaying together would only be getting close to the Vulcan! 😀
XN923I’ve followed this for a while and two things strike me. First, that the very passionate supporters of the project are quieter in this thread than before – that worries me.
I don’t like getting embroiled in the kind of arguments the Vulcan seems to inspire these days. I just wrote out a cheque and put it in the post.
XN923Could anyone explain to me the differences between the various records and claimed records? For example, the XS-1 and D-558-1 apparently held ‘records’ for being fastest, but these were not FAI recognised records like the Fairey Delta 2, North American F-100, Hawker Hunter held. What ‘official’ recognition is there for the former category, and are we counting them?
There also seem to be a number of claimed but unofficial ‘records’ like the F-8, F-4 etc – are these purely manufacturer claims?
Incidentally the Macchi-Castoldi MC.72 still holds the official seaplane speed record, at around 440mph if memory serves.
Incidentally, the Science Museum’s S1595 is the Supermarine S6.B that won the Schneider Trophy (and holds the all time record for that race) and the first to break 400mph speed record, but S1596 also held the absolute speed record I believe, set on the day of the 1931 Schneider Trophy ‘race’.
XN923Don’t forget Germany – the Me109, He100 and Me209 were all holders in the 30s.
I believe one of the Curtiss R3C series is preserved in the NASM, but again, don’t know if this was one of the record setting aircraft.
Not sure about the record holding Supermarine S6B – I’ve a feeling it’s the other one that is preserved in the Science Museum. The Gloster VI is no more, fate unknown but probably scrapped – an eternal shame as it was one of the most beautiful aircraft ever to have had air beneath its wings.
XN923Most models get the cross section of the nose wrong, reproducing it as circular rather than slightly flattened at the top and bottom. You could try contacting Andy who runs the Blackburn Buccaneer site, I have a feeling he had some data on Sea Vixens and migt have accurate measurements, if not drawings. Site is http://www.blackburn-buccaneer.co.uk
XN923And now, for your enjoyment….
Nice website! Thanks for pointing that one out.
The Arrow was considered for the specification but ruled out as it didn’t meet the minimum requirements – which, given how advanced it was, shows the level of performance the spec was asking for. The winner would most likely have been Mach 3, hideously expensive, late – and inevitably cancelled at some stage. If it wasn’t in ’57, it would have been ’58, or ’59… Would have been nice to see metal cut though.
Always had a soft spot for the DH and Hawker suggestions, and the smaller of the Fairey birds – even though they were ruled out early, they were considered on the basis of best available technology and soonest possible in-service date.
XN923I would appreciate the source / document for this comment, as the TSR2 was designed around an operational requirement specifically required the capability to operate at high and low altitude; this included a requirement to cruise at Mach 1.7 at 50,000ft (OR 343).
The source was documents from the National Archives quoted in a three-part article from Model Aircraft Monthly last year. I don’t have that with me but it was certainly quoting official, contemporary documents which suggested that although a feasibility study was conducted, the conclusion was that the aircraft was basically inappropriate for the interceptor role. There were better designs out there – Avro Arrow and Hawker P.1121 for example. Also both cancelled but hey ho.
The TSR2 hardly differs from and is generally accepted as an evolution of the English Electric P17A which was designed for GOR339. As for VS promise of integrated electronics reminds me of the many presentations I have sat through about various wonderful pieces of “Vapourware”.
Source please? The Aeroguide Publications book states (and I have heard elsewhere – Damien’s website for example) that the designs were combined. Although the P17A layout undoubtedly influenced the TSR-2, so did the VS proposal. I maintain that the fuselage shape and layout of the finished aircraft bears more resemblance to the Vickers-Supermarine proposal, though these were both early studies so a great deal of evolution was going to take place before metal was cut.
Bear in mind also that in the F.155T supersonic interceptor requirement which had been narrowly won by Fairey before cancellation, Vickers Supermarine gave a very strong showing while English Electric was discounted at a very early stage. In some areas, the VS scored above the Fairey and Armstrong Whitworth entries, including as a ‘weapons system’. Although VS projects such as the Swift and Scimitar were disappointing, they were still highly regarded as a design and project management force.
I didn’t write that the investigations were a direct result of the TSR2 cancellation, but it was certainly it and the rest of the wholesale destruction of the UK aircraft industry was an example of the incapability and incompetence of him and his largely unemployable cabinet that helped confirm the suspicions of MI5.
Wholesale? I think Sandys and the botched ‘rationalisation’ of the aircraft industry in the late 50s by the government of the day was a significant contributor to this as well. Or their failure to exploit products such as the Fairey Delta 2. Then you might look at BA’s record with buying and operating British products. Not forgetting the fact that the UK aircraft industry was perfectly capable of screwing things up all by itself – Nimrod AEW for example. There was more than one smoking gun.
XN923Some points above which I would take issue with.
1) TSR2 as an interceptor. This possibility was assessed and the conclusion was that the aircraft was fundamentally unsuitable. The nose was not big enough for the requisite radar scanner, and more seriously, at its operating altitude it would have had to remain at around Mach 2 just to stay in the air. Needless to say manoeuvrability would have been non-existant and it would have guzzled fuel. As a design fundamentally optimised for low-altitude work this is no real surprise. Suffice to say that a major redesign and probably big increase in wing area would have been needed to make a decent long distance interceptor.
2) TSR2 as a ‘fundamentally English Electric Design’. Not really true. The designs from VS and EE were combined, with the flying surfaces coming from EE’s study and the fuselage and avionics from VS. Arguably, more of the aircraft came from the latter. Look at VS’s design studies in Tony Buttler’s ‘Secret Projects’ – ignore the flying surfaces and it bears a closer resemblence to the aircraft that emerged. Also, the chief appeal for the government about the VS project was that it was an integrated system as opposed to an airframe with things bolted on. The EE design was less integrated and less attractive although their ‘hot ship’ experience was useful.
3) Wilson Government. I understand why there continues to be so much venom over the decision to cancel, but the fact remains that Labour had opposed the aircraft from day 1 and it should not come as so much of a surprise that they cancelled it. Arguably the fault was equally with the preceding government which instituted the appalling management structure that led to delays and cost overruns and made the decision relatively easy. IIRC the MI5 investigations into alleged communist links was more to do with establishment paranoia and the utopianism of earlier Labout governments than suspicions over the handling of TSR2.
XN923Fairey Delta 3
Hawker P.1121
XN923The Free French 520s were relegated to training and then replaced by the Aircobra…doesn’t say a whole lot for it.
Isn’t this more to do with serviceability and spares availability? The Free French didn’t have access to D.520 production until 1944 when, I understand, some squadrons began to use examples ‘liberated’ from Vichy and German sources (which had kept the aircraft in production throughout the war, albeit as a fighter trainer in the latter case).
Without the kind of development that the Spitfire and Bf109 were subject to between 1940 and 1945, it’s difficult to say how the D.520 would have held up. It does seem though that the D.520 was on a par with the Spitfire MkI and Bf109E at the time it met the latter in combat.
XN923Didn’t Westland develop the low back Spit?
Mk21 took longer to develop because of the new wing and had handling problems to sort out. Also, I suspect it was a case of various different marks being in production at the same time (IX, XVI, XIV) and the low back being introduced during production. Other marks like PR XIX not strictly ‘later’ because they were developed from earlier versions. There was not one single, straight line of evolution in the Spitfire family but numerous ‘branches’ and I suspect this as much as anything is why some variants seemed to be ‘throwbacks’.
XN923Flying around the pacific in a Grumman Goose, lugging cargo, fighting pirates and of course, getting the girl…………. that’ll do me just fine…..;)
Don’t forget defeating both the Nazis and the Japanese, and raising the money to buy Jack’s eye back! 😉
XN923Sci-fi flying boats
I see your Saro Princess, Raise you the Saunders-Roe p.192!!!!! Now money really would be an object!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I had to Google that, and all I can say is… blimey! A Short Empire for the space age. I fold.
XN923That’s the one XN, I thank you 🙂
No problem. Though I think I would have to see your Short Shetland, and raise you a Saro Princess.
You can keep your bizjets – I’m travelling in style! 😀
Sign In
