if they got it 20% wrong so soon, what makes you guys think the gov numbers are going to be any better in the future ?
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN0111242120100601
Lockheed F-35 to beat Pentagon estimate by 20 pct
Lockheed Martin Corp (LMT.N) is making good progress negotiating a U.S. contract for a fourth batch of 32 F-35 Joint Strike Fighter planes and expects to beat the Pentagon’s cost estimates by more than 20 percent, a senior company official said on Tuesday.
most of the f-35 work is done subsonic, its the way it was designed to do it
if needed it has good acceleration and transonic performance
us tax payers foot the bill, as they always do
us exports are normally flyaway plus FMS % [foreign military sale]
this is a bit different where there are partnerships with R&D costs paid up front with work offset and partners buy at flyaway
non partners buys will be under FMS
i dont mind if usa costs are $500 bln or more
the partners pay the flyaway cost, refer to my post at the top of the page
i’m afraid you have the wrong end of the stick on both r&d and costs
i suggested eu money with an eu panel with offset to all, rather than individual countries looking after themselves,
uk has significant design and work share in the f-35
yes thats why we brought spanish ships and french helicopters because we are all usa
able to if needed and having the budget money get value are 2 different things
i wont go into aus defense industry, but some nations chase a bit of the tech, as is the same for other countries
do you know what projection means ?
why would aust want to design build by its self and end up with a second rate plane that even 3rd world airforces dont want
aus has designed some of the f-35 with tech transfer to the project
it is also building part of the f-35, as are the other partners
lets look at its equivalent
* 1 Apil 1965: Tripartite Evaluation Squadron Kestrel FGA1 (XS696) caught fire on take-off at RAF West Raynham.[1]
* 21 September 1967: Tripartite Evaluation Squadron Kestrel FGA1 (XS693) was abandoned 2 miles fom Boscombe Down.[1]
* 27 January 1969: RAF GR3 (XV743) was abandoned over Dunsfold Aerodrome.[2]
* 4 June 1969: Aeroplane and Armament Experimental Establishment (A&AEE) T2 (XW174) abandoned after loss of power near Boscombe Down.[2]
Sintra, if you dont want to see what i mean, you wont
let me try again using aust.
we design and build typhoon for a total of $200 mil each in a 5 nation euro partnership
or we can partner usa with 8 nations and buy the f-35a for about $70 mil each, including our R&D contribution of $144 mil or $1.44 mill per aircraft with 100 ordered and share in the work
the latter seems a better option for capability of plane and cost
i wasnt the one to start talking price
i quoted a paragraph without edit, you have missed the point that if you could buy a f-22 of usa for $140+ mil, its cheaper than the total cost of the phoons per unit
but the f-35 is a better example, IMO except for the gripen, eurocanards are non competitive on the western export market come 2020 and there is nothing planned to follow at this stage
the subject of where euro goes from here is important, will some nato do joint developments with usa again, or will there be a euro solution
With regards to the Rafale, from french sources.
Total programme costs are 40.7 bln €. This is for R & D, industrialisation, simulators, spares and other support and the production of 286 aircraft. This cost is for the time frame from 1989 to 2021 and includes the VAT.
Substracting the VAT the cost is 34 bln €, but that’s not what the tax payer has to pay, because 25% of the R & D was paid by the manufacturer himself. With an R & D of supposely 9.8 bln €, the manufacturer paid about 2.5 bln € himself. In other words the Rafale programme costs the french tax payer some 31.5 bln € over timeframe of ~30 years.Courtesy goes to TMor who has figured it out by mailing Dassault for a more detailed explaination and using the latest public figures from the French government.
Edit:
BTW production of batch 4 should be finished by 2015 not 2020.
you might want to check your production numbers till 2015
i was being conservative saying 2020 for the now ordered aircraft, including the last order of 60, i read 2020-25
http://translate.google.com.au/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://www.air-defense.net/forum/index.php%3Ftopic%3D12085.2800&ei=1foGTO3eOsbXceuEoZUO&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBkQ7gEwAA&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dhttp://www.parlement-ue2008.fr/rap/a08-548/a08-54816.gif%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3DGqJ%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official
but seeing this is a phoon thread, we should be talking about its price
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/04/11/mod_planning_round_analysis/page2.html
In terms of unit costs, Tranche 3 could be a good idea. The RAF’s 232 Typhoons will have cost the taxpayer an average £86m with Tranche 3; without, the 144 planes would each cost £138m, in the same ballpark as the Americans’ new F-22 Stealth ultrasuperfighter. (Disregard any RAF Eurofighter cost quote you see lower than £86m. These lower pricetags can be produced only after highly creative accounting, or as it is sometimes known, ‘lying’
UK havent got their test craft yet,
usa havent crashed any yet, which is unusual for a new design
they did a vertical landing and such but its early days
Total number of fighters ordered: 180
Total program cost 39.6 bln EUR (1,46 EURUSD) = 57.8 bln $
UPC = 321 mln $
ok, it could of been for the ordered aircraft till 2020, $321mil
i found a post of toans in a banter 35 thread on costing
http://forum.keypublishing.com/showpost.php?p=1553204&postcount=39
F-35:
1. Average unit productional cost from 2007 to 2010 for 58 fighters: 248.3 million USD per fighter.
2. Anticipated unit average productional cost from 2007 to 2015 for 420 fighters: 172.4 million USD per fighter.
3. Anticipated unit average productional cost from 2007 to 2034 for 2443 fighters: 111.9 million USD per fighter.
4. Anticipated unit average R&D + Productional cost from 2007 to 2034 for 2443 fighters: 132.3 million USD per fighter.
Rafale:
1. Average unit productional cost in 2009: 101.1 million Euro per fighter –> Around 141.5 million USD in 2009 or 135.5 million USD right now.
2. Anticipated unit R&D + Productional cost from 1997 to 2030 for 286 fighters: 142.3 million Euro per fighter –> Around 199.2 million USD in 2009 or 190.7 million USD right now.
i’ll have a search and see if i can find the thread here
your site looks sound, obviously 300 and 250 is a mistake and it wasnt apples for apples
without opening the link yet, it was said at the time the phoon was about 250 mil
i got the number here, that someone posted, 8-10 billion R&D plus the number to be/has been ordered or brought [for eelighting], it may be wrong, but thats what was said
what is the total cost of the rafale program then in todays euro’s