GollevainenSo how many people did this poor bastart kill?:confused:
GollevainenSo how many people did this poor bastart kill?:confused:
GollevainenThank you very much indeed…:) 🙂
GollevainenYes, it’s the same thingy that was pictured on Novik. It’s a cold-launch VLS, guess I posted somewhere here a drawing of forward section of 22350. There’s not much to elaborate right now, even the names are secret in Russia nowadays.
Tell me about it…and it doesen’t help if you cannto speak russian and sweap around their corners:( …
…which brings me to my next request: (sorry to highjack this thread)
In http://www.atrinaflot.narod.ru/ in the Neustrashimmy section there are four small drawings in the bottom which seems to show some alternative export configurations of modernised Neustrashimmyy design. Unfortunetly those pics don’t open (well they do, but in the same size as the orginals which are little smaller than poststamps). I belive one of the drawings is the one showed in the attachments. Have anyone by any change the others?
GollevainenSo Redut is the name of the complex and Poliment-K is the radar? Could you elaborate more of this SAM system? I’ve come agross it in few other occasions earlier but only mentions of those names, no addtional information of whatsoever. Wasen’t that the system intended for the pr. 1244 Novik class as well?
GollevainenHow come? Depends how you count it but with some methods Russia is already/still the seccond largest in the world.
GollevainenJust out of curiosity, is there any pics availble which would show the Sampson arrays which are inside the round dome?
GollevainenNot quite.. According to my attempts ot understand few russian sources, here’s what I know about 1153 in brief:
Its was the seccond attempt to create a conventional carrier after Kiev class was already in put in production. It was like you said much smaller design than the larger project 1160 which dated few years earlier. pr. 1153 was however slighlty smaller than Kuznetsov, just bellow 300 meters in lenght and roughly same displacement. It wasen’t cancelled due failure of catabult design but more due political decision to continue the Kiev class which was made under high belives to V/STOL planes. Defence minister Ustinov particularry had strong hopes for the future supersonic VSTOL plane which was to follow the Yak-38. In this belive he had generated virtually a hate-like feelings towards conventional carriers and did quite effectly mash all attempts to have conventional aicrafts over seas during his servicetime. Not only was 1153 soon cancelled after it had emerged, but also when the issue was reintroduced in the forms of Kuznetsov and Varyag, he managed to get his point of wiev trough and 1143.5/6 was to have Ski-jump for the use of the new VSTOL plane rather than catabults and arrestor vwires for conventional planes. What I’ve understood the VSTOL plane (Yak-41) was after this decision form the base of the fighter airwing. Even before the first unit was completed however sukhoi and MiG managed to proof that their new jets Su-27 and MiG-29 could take of from the ski-jump as well. As the ship was designed from the outset to field conventional planes, adopting the new STOBAR arragment didn’t proove too difficoult.
This is however my own intrepretion of the existing russian sources. Its done by using translator services and translated text and I might be wrong…perhaps someone has solider insights to this matter?
GollevainenIf it’s the 1939 winter war you’re referring to, well yes, we all admire Finland’s military abilities and bravery during that war – but I ask you this question, how would the Finnish Government have responded if their country was invaded by not only the Soviet Union but also by Sweden, Norway and the Baltic States at the same time and from multiple directions? How long would Finnish resistance have lasted in such a case? This was the situation facing Czechoslovakia in 1968.
Well even by so, we would have figth…it has been our lifeline, otherwise we would have perished long before history books begun to take account the happenings in northern regions. Even considering the possibility to not to figth is almoust beyond my logic…even hard line communist in here were in the arms during 1939
(and norway, sweeden and little balts wouldn’t make any difference, we could have taken them even by using only our women voluntaries:D 😀 …a joke, joke…) But seriously, same thing with Warsav pact. The other non-sov states recluntance to participate in the invasion is rather well known. I found it little too unrealistic to think that Poles and East Germans morale wuould have lasted that long if there would have been really a figthing…overally their participation was a propaganda stunt and their units where firts to withdrawn.
And yeas, such war would have propaply been led to WWIII but I think that sort of issues shouldnt be relevant when deciding wheter to stand up or say yeas to slavery…
GollevainenThe military got strict orders from the Czechoslovak communist leadership not to mess with the intervened WP force, that`s all. They didnt attack us, didnt bomb us, didnt shoot into people. Why would we need to fight back?
After all, people felt that way too and blamed the military for being inactive and acting like cowards, but what sense would it have to start a fight with the whole Warsaw pact?
well there would have been change, albeit limited but still a change to gain freedom. I dont know about rest but isent the main task of armed forces mented to rebel against foreing occupaitors. If there is a spirit in the armed forces, that some foe is too big to resist, whats the purpose of spending money into defence at all, if you arent ready to use it?
(thougth as I have understand, Soviets demanded all warsav pact nations to keep up strong militaries to help their own agendas…) ‘
haha, you are funny, and what you achieved by doing so? Actually you are saying that hidding in woods of Finland is the same thing as to start fight with Soviets…
Achieve? resistance of course. I didnt mean that we would go there and hide untill they are gone but wait them to come and then strike.. that has been custom in this penisula for 1000 years or so, when ever the eastern neighbour have begun to act suscpiciously….Thats the way to figth in here, use the extensive wilderness as cover and strike like irregulars in the rear. Didn’t you know that main finnish infantry is usually called, even offically as gurrelia troops…
Prior to WWII many nations choosed similar path that Chechoslovakia in 1968 including then democratic chechkoslovakia, and were occupied by germans or by the soviets. We choosed to figth, despite everyone knew that war would be disaster to such small nation…but the price of that decission is rather self-evident.
GollevainenAgainst the Russians?!
….well we did…and in 1968 events, our army was put under secret semi-mobilisation state and all the eastern brigades had their conscripts suddenly given reall ammunitions and send to the woods in unscheduled “exersises”…
Checkoslovakia had considerably large armed forces and they could have given up resistance far more devastating to the russians than Chechens and Agfans could have ever given. Also a full fletched war inside warsav pact would have had great effact on the cold war and I doupt NATO could have sit idle and just watch
GollevainenHmm perhaps a bit offtopic and risky to ask, But as for the 1968 events, I have always wondered why didnt the Checks figth back? Were there any change for it? What where the main and biggest reason for Checkoslovakian army to be paralyzed so easily? Or is there any explanation to it?
I dont want to be distrespectfull to Checkoslovakians people or claim that it was their fault, but just curious over the reasons that made the whole mess possible
GollevainenWell I was talking about actual physical system fits.
Anyway the drawing process of 1153 may take awhile, its one huge ship and with the vague detail information its equally frustrating as it is demanding. But Golly wont give up that easy, I will complete it, even if its one line per day but it shall be done!!;)
GollevainenWell I’ve seen a cut-way drawing the Mars-Passat and that what made me wonder this in the first place.
What comes to 1144’s, the first unit, Kirov didn’t have either Kinzhal nor Kortik. Frunze had Kinzhal fitted alongside OSA-M and only Kalinin had the full set of Kinzhals and Kortiks.
But soviets propaply would have build several of the 1153 if it had materialized so why not having them all?. Lets say the first unit was launched Around 1978, seccond one in 1982 and third in 1985. The fist unit would have only Kinzhals and AK-630s, and the seccond and third having Kinzhals and Kortiks. Also as the Mars-Passat didn’t prooven out to be so succesfull, the thir unit would (in the lines of real world Varyag) have the Mars-passat replaced by the Forum suite. Once i’ve drawn the first one, its not an hard job to add or remove small things like radars and weapons.
GollevainenI mainly ment that the late commision date of Kuznetsov (counting from the point where soviets started to pursue conventional carriers) made it possiple that the latest soviet weapons systems were ready for it.
No, Golly, unfortunately this is one of the “pocket” museums of design bureaus and it’s possible to get there only if you have very good contacts at that design bureau.
Dammed..:( We need to get someone inside…;)
As for the weapon suite, even if the 1153 would have been laid down in late 70’s, basicly in the place of Baku, I doupt the Kortik would have been ready for it.
But another question comes to my mind. The linedrawing clearly shows some sort of passive array radars, similar to the Mars-Passat. If we play along that the ship would have laid down in the place of Baku, the system naturally would have been availble. The question is that can the system be mounted in the way that it is in the linedrawing? Meanng angled in the way of Alreigh Burke/052C style?
Sign In
