1. The US actually has legitimate reasons for profiling. Which is different from taking over and oppressing an entire nation.

and how is this done?
1.what in your mind then legimates opression of any sort (call it profiling or what ever you want)
2. and by that logic used in atop, how it differences from any other means of ‘legimate’ opression?

Well 052C undeniably has the strongest AAW suite, tough it’s pretty much specialized to that one particular task. Regardless wether the HHQ-9 and the associated phassed array radar system works, in paper it’s airdefence power is unmached in the IN. But is it the best of all the candinates?

If we look the ship without it’s AAW suite, it really isen’t so formidable fighting ship after all. It’s underpowered (IMO) and it’s ASW capability doesen’t stand the daylight. So unlike it’s western counterparts (ships with Aegis system) it’s not a true multipurpose ship. Which it doesen’t neccecerically has to be, however. In it’s own narrow field it’s the best that there is, pretty much becouse there isen’t any rivals in the IN (tough only two units build+ other rumours makes me bit sceptic wether the class was a true succes)

But AAW isen’t the sole role of destroyers, so i think the real comparison comes with the 052B and P15. These are most potent general purpose DDGs of both sides.
The ships are remarkably similar, they both have the duople head-Shtill SAM system and it’s associated radars. Both have 16 SSMs and a 100 mm gun. In light of this they are very similar so to determine which one is better, the differences will rise to unecpected value.

First some general shipbuilding charesteristics…P15 have GOGOG arragment and 052B has GODAG machinery. In my obnion the latter with only two gas turbines genrating 48,000 hp isen’t sufficient enough for ships of that size. The somewhat low maxium speed of the chinese ships speaks of this as does the most likely not so impressive endurance (compared to similar size ships with similar machinery) P15 in other hands has far greater maxium speed and the endurance is decent enough.

In the armament fits the ships are almoust par, at least when it comes to the main airdefence system (tough the chinese ships can handle the upgraded SA-N-12 missile.) The chinese SSMs are at least faster and longer range (alledgedly) than the 3M-24E Urans carried by the P15, but the differences are not so huge. Expsecially when the Delhi’s will be fitted with the extended range 3M-24E1, so the ships are pretty much par in this field also) Both SSM missile systems have the same fire control radars so again their similarity is close. Close-in airdefence is different in chinese and Indian ships. The 052B carries the Type 730 CIWS which is above one generation than the AK-630 orginally fitted in the P15. Two of the indian ships are however fitted with the Barak anti-missile defence system unmatched in the chinese ships.
The biggest difference comes in the ASW. The P15 have quite potent sonar (both hull mounted and VDS) suite, mainly canadian orgin (from country which even the mighty USN turns with ASW help) where as the chinese sonar systems are most in the shadow. There is no solid confirmation but most likely it’s the old french DUBV-23 bow mounted sonar. VDS is not fitted to the chinese ships. Also the ASW armament is limited in the chinese ships to the tripple “whiteheads” where as the P15 has both 2×4 533mm torpedo tubes and RBU-6000 ASW launchers. The chinese ship carries one Ka-28 and the indian ship carries two Sea Kings (every one can make their own conclusion of which copter is better)

As the ASW is the most important role of destroyers (exspecially those which are not speciallized for AAW), the Delhi beats the 052B 6-0. However the slightly better area-airdefence and SSM capability gives the 052B good points, the general ship spesifications and better close-in airdefence of Delhi compensates these. So IMO P15 is the most potent general purpose destroyers in the area.

But feel no sorrow china…As said the 052C gives unbeatable advantage and the odd ex soviet BRK type Sovremennys are not to be taken lightly either…

…so it’s a tie mach in over all… 😎

If, say, purple people are constantly threatening you and knocking over large constructs you’ve built, then there is absolutely and unequivocally nothing wrong with looking a bit harder at purple people that try and enter your country in the future.

With apologies to any people out there who might be purple (in which case breathing might be a good idea…) 😀

well what I understand of what GarryB tried to say, is that east block, DDR&co. had as ‘good’ and ‘legimate’ reasons to obress people they obressed. So to condemn communist nations tyranny, one must condemn all sort of tyranny and not to be advocate of the current US policy that justificates its own questionable methods by same logic as the communist did (and fasists before that) by declaring some spesific lot of people by actions of few to be under suspicious watch.
Or do our pro-US fraction has some sort of other (previously unknown) logic that they follow? I would love to here more if there is one… 🙂 🙂

My stance for the issue is (sorry that I’m such late responder) that all the worlds current proplems can be followed back to the fact that these mediteranian and principally asian religions have started flourish here in europe….

…bit hars accusation, and propaply not univerasally binding for all worlds trouples, but nevertheless to its Biggest proplem: Enveriomental dissater. Among other silly things, christian (and judaism and islam as well) teached that one god has created man, and the surroundings in the manner that god has made man as its representative in the nature itself, or atleast the man, taking from the nature, takes from its own god and to this relationship adds the laws of that man god relation ship leaving the nature pretty much out of it. Before, almoust all european (and other natural believers as well) had religion that based on the worship of the nature and its phenemmenons. Nature was ruled by fiersome gods and spirits and human was mere visitor in it. When ever man used it or took from it, he needed to have ‘permission’ for that and that was essentially the basic religious sacrament or execution.
That build humbleness in front of the nature and gave the toppest position for it…nobody wasted the nature and people’s respect for it was on the rigth place…

Then the monothethics came to **** up the mans wiev of the world…god had now somehow given the nature for man to use as it pleased…the rest is melting icegap and deforrestation …

So do we need even more fundamental one-god foolery to spoil the promising materialising the european society and down fall of christianitys credipility as active morale aucthoricate…No, we need Thor, Zeus, Perun and Ilmarinen (and gollevainen :p ),more than any Allah’s or jahves!

sorry, but I just couldnt keep this one inside any more….

I don’t know if the Russian govenrnment did the deed, but it worth asking
if not them, then who did kill him? Then ask yourself “who had the most to lose if he kept talking”.

If the anti-Russian bias is as strong as you and “extropiandreams” seem to think, why would someone (a Western government, etc) risk a major embarassment to simply cause more?

One thing I’ve learned from watching documentaries about the “Mob”…is sometimes they make a very public killing in order to keep people in fear.
The logic seems to be “since you’re going to be suspected anyway, make sure the victim suffers a horrible death to keep your enemies in line”.

but didn’t they always ask? …And then they missunderstands the typical Russian way of handeling the principilityes of open governmenting by making assumptions that couse they’re beeing grumpy when asked, they must hide something….
media automatically assumes that the public would only understood russian news if you forge them into some modell or even a clisee….and when some russian opposite politican dies, the clisee requires that you start blaming the government of Russia, and the way Russians have always responsed to this sort of media coverance only fuels the medias inbuild imago of russia that it wants to impose to its readers….

Finnish Intelligence,

…yeas, Ou PM asked in his inteligence preifing, “How would we keep our forthcomming EU-Russia summit 100% in the headlines?…”