PAF also tested J-10 last year in the 3rd quarter and was really impressed by it specially by the avionics. Chinese avionics have come a long way. PAF is looking into inducting J-10s and they won’t be a replacement rather an addition. PAF has never looked into inducting something in small numbers and the reason is to keep the operating cost lower. F-16 was supposed to be in big numbers also but the whole plan was effected due to sanctions as we all know it.

I believe the minimum number would be 4 to 6 squadrons of J-10. If you guys remember PAF’s last Chief who died in an accident also mentioned that PAF was looking into some more advanced Chinese aircraft, it could have been JXX but I doubt that since that project has some ways to go.

one of the main news item was proposed sale of Al-Khalid’s to Saudi Arabia. I believe Pakdef had reprted that on tank-net.org a while ago, may be last year and also this year.

According to pakdef, al-khalid was tested by the saudis in Pakistan and later to be tested in Saudi desert. Bangladesh is also interested in upgrading their T-55s and T-59s to Al-Zarrar standard, and also establish a local shop to implement the upgrade and overhaul.

Bangladeshi military personnel visited HIT this August for testing and evaluation.

Since this is an aviation forum I won’t go into that in detail. PAF is in the process of negotiating for Grippens. This is all a political game but they always have the French option available. The only drawback for that is the price thats why French solution is more like a backup plan. Money is not an issuem but like all countries Pakistan would rather go for the cheaper deal. F-16s are not a permanent solution for PAF, its rather a convenience since they already have the infrastructure for that. 18 Additional F-16s would make the total number to 50 aircraft and that will activate 3rd squadron.

J-10 is not a 4th generation solution for PAF, their Chief has always said we will go for a western aircraft for frontline fighters. This doesn’t mean that J-10 won’t be inducted, J-10 will be an addition rather than squadron. PAF has been contemplating on increasing the number of squadrons. JF-17 is more like a replacement for Mirages and J-7s for the numbers not for the technology.

According to my sources the Zimbabwe deal for FC-1 is also true, but the number is small. I believe its supposed to be under 20 aircraft.

UKRAINE POISED TO LAND MAJOR ARMS CONTRACT FROM PAKISTAN

BBC Monitoring International Reports

Source: Defense-Express web site, Kiev, in Russian 20 Aug 04, BBC Monitoring

August 25, 2004

Pakistan is going to buy weapons worth almost 1bn dollars from Ukraine, a web site has reported, quoting unnamed “informed sources”. According to the web site, who was commenting on a recent visit by senior Pakistani military officials to Ukraine, Pakistan would also like to jointly manufacture tanks with Ukraine for export to Saudi Arabia. Pakistan was said to be currently interested in Ukrainian APCs, tank upgrades, guided munitions and air-to-air missiles. The following is the text of the article by Mykola Syruk, posted on the Ukrainian web site Defense Express on 20 August under the title “Is a major new arms contract in the offing in Ukraine?”:

On 19 August, a Pakistani military delegation led by Gen Muhammad Aziz Khan, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee (JCSC) of Pakistan’s armed forces, completed a six-day official visit to Ukraine and left for home. Although this was the first official visit by such a high-ranking military leader, it did, in effect, take place under a veil of secrecy. Not a single publication was allowed to cover the Pakistani delegation’s visit, and not a single news conference was organized. The Ukrainian Defence Ministry confined itself to an announcement that the development of military and military-technical cooperation was discussed at a meeting between the Pakistani delegation, Oleksandr Oliynyk, acting head of the defence department, and Gen Serhiy Kyrychenko, chief of the general staff of the Ukrainian armed forces. The Pakistani general’s meeting with representatives of the Ukrainian arms trade and defence establishment indicates that Pakistan has an interest in continuing to purchase armaments and military hardware in Ukraine.

It should be recalled that Islamabad has not lost interest in Ukrainian weapons since the completion in 1999 of the major contract to supply Pakistan with 320 T-80UD tanks, worth about 640m dollars. When he was in Ukraine two years ago, Zakir Jaffer, head of Ahmed Jaffer & Company Ltd, which specializes, among other things, in supplying the Pakistani army with military hardware, confirmed Pakistan’s interest in expanding and renewing the partnership with Ukraine in the field of military-technical cooperation. The Pakistani arms dealer stressed that collaboration in that area could be extended by cooperation in joint production. The result of the Pakistani arms dealer’s “reconnaissance assault” was the signing in the summer of 2002 of a contract worth some 100m dollars for the state-owned Kharkiv Malyshev plant to supply 285 6TD engine-transmission sections for the Al Khalid, Pakistan’s new main battle tank. This was previously known as project MBT-2000. Zakir Jaffer also recalled the successful experience of running Ukrainian KrAZ (Kremenchuk motor vehicle plant) vehicles in Pakistan, specifying that Pakistan was currently interested in renewing the army’s fleet of heavy vehicles. Incidentally, the AvtoKrAZ open joint-stock company has already prepared a new right-hand drive vehicle for Pakistan. At the same time, the Pakistani arms dealer spoke of the prospects for cooperation in the aviation field, and particularly of Pakistan’s need for military transport aircraft and helicopters to carry army personnel. According to some reports, a consignment of Ukrainian military transport helicopters taken from the arsenals of the Ukrainian Defence Ministry was delivered to Pakistan.

But now, informed sources maintain, what is at stake is a contract worth virtually a billion (dollars, presumably) to supply Pakistan with armaments and military hardware, which may be signed with Islamabad shortly. The Pakistani general wanted to check with his own eyes to see what sort of goods he was being offered in Ukraine. First and foremost, cooperation will be continued in the armoured vehicle field. Some reports say that Pakistan intends to produce, jointly with Ukraine, tanks that will be exported to Saudi Arabia. At the test site of Kharkiv’s Malyshev plant, the JCSC chairman of Pakistan’s armed forces was shown the Ukrainian tank-building industry’s capacity to modernize tanks and create new armoured equipment. In particular, he saw a development by the Morozov engineering design bureau, Kharkiv – a multipurpose wheeled transport vehicle, offered in two versions – as a multipurpose vehicle with increased cross-country ability and a carrying capacity of up to two tonnes, and an armoured personnel carrier that is intended to carry loads and people and provides protection against small arms and weapons of mass destruction. Obviously, the visitor was able to see for himself that the Ukrainian “Hummer” was just as good as its American counterpart but cost only half as much. It is likely that the Pakistani general was also shown the T-64 “Bulat” tank that has been upgraded for the Ukrainian army and a version of the modernized T-55. There are over 500 such tanks in Pakistan. Evidently, Muhammad Aziz Khan was offered Ukrainian know-how for improving the combat performance of the Chinese-made T-59 tanks that are in service with the Pakistani army. There are more than 1,000 such tanks in Pakistan, and they are in need of modernization, in which, incidentally, Ukraine is taking part. It is well known that 50 modifications have been made to the tank’s original design. In particular, the 520-hp engine has been replaced with a new, Ukrainian-made engine with a capacity of 730 hp. The armour has been strengthened, and a more powerful, 125-mm gun has been fitted, as well as an electronic fire control stabilization system, which can be used while the vehicle is in motion, and night vision equipment. So the supply of Ukrainian engines for these tanks may well continue, and the Ukrainian share in upgrading the vehicles may possibly increase. The Ukrainian arms dealers may also have convinced the Pakistani military of the advantages of the latest guided munitions, which were successfully tested at the beginning of this year. If so, a major contract can be expected as a follow-up, since the tanks that are in service with Pakistan’s ground forces will be equipped with these munitions, and so too will those that are to be exported. Finally, experts think, Pakistan is showing considerable interest not only in ground-based high-precision weapons made in Ukraine, but also in developments that might strengthen the state’s air defences. Accordingly, at the invitation of Valeriy Shmarov, director-general of the Ukrspetseksport state company, the Pakistani general also visited the Artem state joint-stock holding company. Evidently, the visitor was shown the Kiev company’s latest air-to-air missiles. The experts are not ruling out the possibility that Islamabad will soon conclude with Ukraine a contract to supply new air-to-air missiles that can hit air targets at a range of up to 100 km.

The seriousness of the two sides’ intentions is corroborated by the fact that JCSC chairman Muhammad Aziz Khan was received by Yuriy Prokofyev, head of the committee for military and technical cooperation and export control policy under the Ukrainian president. The meeting was also attended by representatives of the Progress specialized foreign trade firm. It was, of course, through Progress that the famous tank contract was negotiated. Ukraine conducts trade with Pakistan in weapons and dual-purpose products through that company. It may well be that formal approval was given at this meeting to the largest deal to supply arms to Pakistan since the tank contract.

I wont go into too much detail as I dont want to digress form the topic. If you are looking at the logistics between the two military most of Pakistan’s bases are near the border and they use trains and trucks havily for mobility and logistics while Indian bases are deep into its territory they are heavily dependent upon helicopters. We saw that during 2002 stand-off also.

Therefore, the doctrine of chopper squadrons and acquistion is totally different in the two army aviations. Pakistan heavily relies on small and mid sized choppers. Pumas are used for air assault roles and somewhat transport of troops and material. Now that role is taken over by Mi-17s also.

So discussing numbers, and who has more is totally meaningless and waste of time. One has to look at the roles these choppers are used in and the military’s respective doctrine. In any true military analysis, numbers dont mean much.

A group of lockheed martin and some other contractors went to pakistan in the beginning of this year to evaluate their P-3Cs for avionics and structural upgrades. They had turned their report to PN and based on that the recent acquisitions are being discussed along with upgrades.

not true, Bell 407s and 412 are brand new and being bought not leased. Cobras are going thru majoe over haul and system upgrade as well.

For PA aviation, pilots are not provided by the AF but they have their own pilots.

From what I have heard is PAF’s Air Weapons Complex is planning to integrate SD-10 with Darter’s seeker/homing device. Engine/booster is or chinese version.

Supposedly thats what yhey had tested along with the Stand off missile.