mavaustinThis is another article. My question is how do indians here see the future of LCA. One thing for sure, its not going anywhere, but the numbers thatwill be inducted and any export possibilities, thats what we need to discuss.
Ravi Sharma
Indian Air Force wants management of the LCA to be transferred to HAL
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The in-charge Aeronautical Development Agency not for it
Airworthiness responsibility will be on us, ADA says
IAF shopping for around 126 multi-role combat aircraft
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BANGALORE: The indigenously developed light combat aircraft (LCA) programme is in danger of being undermined by time overruns. The Indian Air Force is delaying taking to its natural conclusion the announcement made last February by Chief of the Air Staff S.P. Tyagi that orders would be placed “soon” for 40 LCAs.
Apprehension
Highly-placed sources told The Hindu that even while the paperwork for an order of 20 aircraft in a Rs. 2,000-crore deal was being processed, the IAF was “highly apprehensive” of the time and cost overruns, and poor management.
The IAF is keen that the management of the Rs. 5,500-crore, 22-year-old LCA programme be transferred from the technology development agency — Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) — to the production agency, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). Something that ADA is reluctant to do, despite the fact that the presence of two agencies and the resultant dual control have played havoc with the management and time schedules of the LCA programme.
Explained a senior scientist at ADA: “As designers of the aircraft, the airworthiness responsibility will continue to be with us. So too will any new installation or upgradation of software, changes in the avionics and integration of future sensors and we are the signatories for all of the aircraft’s safety features. We will continue to have responsibility for the LCA programme at least until the aircraft is inducted into the IAF. [Which will not happen before 2009-10].”
Blame game
Dual control has resulted in a mutual blame game. While HAL sources criticised ADA for not providing HAL (which is to manufacture the LCA) with the blueprints of the aircraft, scientists at ADA said that the talk of blueprints was passé.
“We have transferred the technology to HAL. Our designs in real time are available to them at their Aircraft Research and Design Centre, where we have invested Rs. 40 crores. They can draw a soft copy of the aircraft’s designs through the product line management systems and then make a 3D model. At any time, Rs. 20 crores of LCA money is parked with HAL.”
Carrier trials
Presently Tejas is undergoing carrier trials and by the end of 2005 weapon integration trials are also expected to start. Both are part of the aircraft’s initial operational clearance (IOC) phase, which requires around 1,200 sorties. Successful IOC clearance (which is scheduled to be achieved by 2009-10) will mean inducting the aircraft into the IAF’s combat units. Only final operational clearance will mean that the aircraft is ready to go into battle.
Currently two technology demonstrators and a prototype of the LCA are flying, and together they have undertaken over 440 flights.
ADA plans to build seven aircraft — two technology demonstrators and five prototypes — in the technology demonstration phase.
Thereafter, HAL’s factories in Bangalore, Lucknow, Korwa and Hyderabad will take up the manufacture of the eight limited series production (LSP) aircraft.
Amount sanctioned
Sources at ADA said the Government had sanctioned over Rs. 500 crores for manufacturing the LSP aircraft and an equal amount for building of infrastructure at HAL, specifically for the LSP.
While the first LSP is scheduled to roll out by early 2007, all eight are scheduled to be ready by 2008-09. The eight aircraft will be built to the same specifications as those that are to be inducted into the IAF. An aircraft or even two will be detailed for handling flights.
The ADA’s insistence that it would like to be in charge of the LCA programme even during the LSP phase has caused consternation in HAL. It means waiting longer before it is given the financial management of the project.
Experts are of the view that ADA, which is a Defence Research and Development Organisation laboratory and was created specifically for the LCA project, could be merged with the HAL’s aircraft design bureau. The ADA team can thereafter carry on its work as part of the manufacturing agency’s design bureau.
Concern
The IAF’s concern is that once an order is placed for 20 LCAs, it will not only have to budget at least Rs. 2,000 crores for the aircraft, but also part with a substantial portion of the money. This will mean that its options to buy other aircraft — if the LCA fails to arrive — will be severely curtailed.
A desperate IAF, which has seen its fighter squadrons shrink from the authorised strength of 39 and a half, because of the phasing out of a number of aircraft, is presently shopping around for 126 multi-role combat aircraft (MRCA).
But the IAF has stressed that the MRCA deal — which is worth around $9 billion — will in no way impinge on its requirement for LCAs, which will be in the region of 200. These aircraft are to take the place of the IAF’s MiG-21s.
mavaustinthere is a clear difference between mig-29 and mirage 2000s. Even with the SU-30mki, IAF decided to go with french avionics….you do the math and logic. :rolleyes:
mavaustinwhy doesnt indian capatalize on this and market Tejas?
mavaustinCinci
taiwan is still a key player and these 12 Mirages will be good for attrition replacement, UAE can be another candidate to compliment its big fleet of Mirage 2000s.
PAF dropped Mirage 2000s from its list a while ago and even the chief said it in one of the interviews. PAF is obviously getting F-16s and may be another Chinese platform either J-10 in time of J-XX which wont be in next 15 years or so.
PAF has shown interest in rafael number of times and that might happen over time, anyway we were discussing qatari deal.
IAF is not going for mirages, since it has to replace a large fleet of Mig-21, 23 and 27s over next 15 years. If we are talking about 200+ aircraft, then Mirage 2000s is an expensive option. I am not sure about the numbers, but it is close to 250? (correct me if i am wrong)
Mirage 2000-5 from france at $50 million a piece with weapons, training, equipment and other consultative fees will cost IAF significantly. In return IAF cannot justify such a deal to the govt since LCA is still alive and kicking.
besides this IN is also looking for an aircraft for its AC. LCA’s future is bleak but still there and cannot be discarded. I think IAF will go for 50:50 with LCA and Mig-29SMT.
mavaustinindian
actually you are wrong there, taiwan wanted to increase its fleet of the Mirage 2000s but France declined its request due to improving trading relationship with China.
Now its logical in yur sense to just devide the total price with the number of planes, typical middle school math we all did, but in a deal such as that there is more to it, weapons, maintenance equipment and spares.
India is not buying a car and neither Qatar is selling one. the mirages IAF has and Qatari mirages are different aircraft and the maintenance equipment is somewhat different also.
Storage doesnt mean these birds are in bad shape, on the contrary, less wear-n-tear, crossion, flying hours etc.
Ont rh other hand low balling shows that IAF is not serious about Mirage 2000s and as the indian air chief had said previously IAF is looking for only twin engine aircraft, so its either SUs, Mig-29s, Rafael and F-18.
We all know that F-18s is out as per Chief, rafel is too expensive, even French cannot afford it and induction time frame would be too long. The only choice IAF has is the Russian platform, and most likely it will be Mig-29s.
mavaustinIAF price upsets Qatar
Chandigarh, July 13: The Qatari authorities are reportedly upset over a “ridiculously low” offer the Indian Air Force recently made for 12 used French Mirage 2000-5 fighters that it has been in negotiations to buy from the Emirate. Official sources said the IAF’s $375-million bid for the fighters — almost half the asking amount by the Qataris — indicated the Air Force’s “casual attitude” to acquiring the aircraft despite its rapidly shrinking fighter fleet and ostensible eagerness to bolster its operational capabilities.
“Pressuring Qatar into selling the Mirage 2000-5 fighters appears, in the light of the IAF’s present offer, to have merely been a tactic by India to stop them from being sold to Pakistan two years ago,” a diplomatic source said, declining to be identified. The Qataris feel India is making a mockery of the purchase, he added. During a visit to Qatar in January 2003, former deputy prime minister L.K. Advani is believed to have told the Qatari authorities that India would be forced to “reconsider” a major gas contract if the Sheikhdom decided to sell the Mirage 2000-5s to Pakistan as it was planning.
Qatar was reportedly under pressure from the US to “dispose off” the Mirage 2000-5s. The Americans had established a major base in Qatar for their invasion of Iraq and was apparently averse to the presence of French technicians for servicing the fighters. It was then decided to dispose the aircraft off to a fellow Islamic country.
Also, at the time, France had vociferously opposed Iraq’s invasion by the US and relations between Washington and Paris were bad, bordering on antagonistic.
According to official sources, the Qataris are believed to be demanding around $750 million for the fighters — nine single seat and three trainers — whose acquisition was cleared by India’s Cabinet Committee on Security in March.
“The fighters have 80-85 per cent of their operational life intact,” India’s defence minister Pranab Mukherjee had declared in March this year, adding that talks for their acquisition would begin soon. Qatar had acquired the fighters in 1997 and had used them sparingly.
mavaustini never posted these comments, where the heck you got these from?
mavaustini think this is the full article but dont know the source. this was posted on abovesecret.com forum
Well Well Well…seems to me that J-XX (J-13) is getting famous day by day even with the very little information out there about it. I know a bit too, I have also go a wind tunnel design & artistic impression pictures on my Hard Disk.
Some of u believe that Chinese have inferior Military Aviation development compared to Russia. Those some of you are wrong. Many Russian scientist fled to China after fall of Soviet Union & many still are. Russian military aviation got the boom when they got German scientists & engineers, but almost all of them are dead & those who r alive dnt knw wheather they r living or dead. Mikayon Gorowich (MiG) cop. couple of years ago warned Russian governmet of decreasing no. of expert Fighter Jets Makers. The report also stated that many scientist now work for Chinese military firms & all those origional engineers who worked on MiG-29 are either dead or retired. Hence Russia is loosing its experts.
Anyways the point here is J-XX. J-XX is not coming from out of the blues. It has evolved. The concept was pretty old but only came to be possible now. Chinese got out of 2nd Gen jets in early 1990s.
There 1st 3rd Gen fighter is FC-1/JF-17 a joint venture with Pakistan. These fighters r due in 2006 & would be competeble to USA’s F-16s (only inferior to F-16C/D Block 50+) & Russian MiG-29.
There 3.5th Gen fighter is J-10 (F-10) which is much more advanced than JF-17 & are competeble to USA’s F-16C/D Block 50+ (in future will be superior to even Block 60), Russian MiG-29 Fulkrum MKI , Russian Su-27 & Mirage2000-5 of France. J-10 is based on Israeli Levi project which was being made with the help of USA. Israel later abondand the project & transfered the blue plans to China giving away significant information on USA technology.
During the developments of FC-1/JF-17 & J-10 China realized that their new jets would be inferior to Su-30,34,35 & 37 MKIs. Hence they started a simaltanious work on J-X (not J-XX or J-13/J-14). J-X is a light combat aircraft superior to Russian Su-30MKI & rest of the series. Mean while
Chinese scientists pursued the J-XX project on papers & board. The idea was to make a pure 5th gen jet. This study lead Chinese to also build WS-10 engines & newer advanc Radars. WS-10 is right now one of the best in the world. With success in FC-1/JF-17 & J-10 project Chinese govt approaved J-X & J-XX project. J-XX was approaved as counter measures to Indo-Russian joint venture PAK-FA. But PAK-FA is built on the bases of Su-40 birkut AC which failed even as a technology demonstrator, so Sukhio has not given any assurance that the PAK-FA too would have any success. On the other hand CAC successfuly made design for stealth wind tunnel for J-XX with the help of some of the Russian engineers. It has been tested by computers as well. Right now J-XX (J-13) & J-X prototype are under construction. J-XX prototype will fly in 2010 while J-X is schedual soon as well probably by 2006-7.
Some un-offical information from Chinese engineers is that the J-XX will be inferior to F-22s but will be directly competeble to JSF-35, EF-2000, Rafale & a bit superior to PAK-FA.
It has been now learnt that FC-1/JF-17 & J-10 r just technology give away AirCrafts for China (& Pakistan)…they will be a stop gap till J-X & J-XX come out. JF-17 & J-10 will also be subject to export (Pakistan will only export JF-17 while may opt fot ToT of J-10 only for its use)….by 2015 to 2020 both PLAAF & PAF will be opperating on J-X & J-XX as their primary Fighters . J-XX would be Air to Air defence AirCraft (but it would be a multi-role capabel as well) while J-X will be a multi-role ground attack Air Craft.
Meanwhile both Pakistan & China r upgrading the life span & performace of their J-7 (Pakistan’s F-7) & Q5 (Pakistan’s A-5)….F-7s r regarded as mini fighting falcons (F-16s) by PAF pilots & Q-5D upgrade is considered as one of the best ground attack AirCraft in the world. D varient is even better than Russian Su-25. <-???
So u see China has never been behind, its just their advancements have been ignored. Their 2nd gen fighters have been upgraded to 3rd gen performamce standards. F-7, Q5, JH-7, J-8 r by no means 2nd gen fighters any more. They r 3rd gen now.
Q5 backed by Air power can even destroy USA’s Abrahms Tanks.
I would like to post J-XX pic here but I dnt knw how to do it, i mean i dnt knw if i can post pics from my hard disk. Besides the pic of actual look J-XX will have is not in jpeg or jpg form so i wont be able to post it here any ways.
mavaustinIndian
once again you are talking about a news articke from two years ago. This is a recent reply from Lockheed martin which was posted at pakdef in reposnse to the same news articke from janes.
Response from Lockheed Martin
The main thing that an AESA radar brings is mode interleaving. There is
also some graceful degradation, LO, and R&M advantages. There are not
necessarily any performance (range/resolution) advantages, which, given
power and aperture size, are mostly a function of processing, and the V9
has essentially the same processor as the APG-80 AESA radar. The V9
developmental problems are history, and the operational customers are
very happy with it. The USAF is doing R&D to retrofit it on their CCIP
F-16s, Turkey has it as option in their CCIP-like upgrade on their Block
40/50s, and it is a matter of affordability for both of them
mavaustinIndian
besdies the 55 Mirages from libya, they also picked up around 125 spare engines, so as far as engine spare is concerned, they are in good shape.
mavaustinstar49
apparently you have no idea what you are talking about….. RC400 is not the only radar that PAF would need in order to use a BVR missile. and question to you, why in the hell PAF doesnt need a BVR, would you care to explain.
mavaustinJonS
thats a look down range you mentioned.
mavaustinsome details of GRIFO-M
GRIFO-M
FIAR developed a series of airborne, multimode fire control radars, one of which is known as P2800 or more commonly known as Griffo-M radar. The radar family ranges in size and capability from the P2801 Grifetto to the Grifo-M (P2800).
The P2800 Grifo-M is larger than the Grifo-X and uses a more elaborate multi- processor fire control system. It is designed to fit in the radar bay of a Mirage III or Mirage V interceptor-strike aircraft as an upgrade option. It is still more powerful than the Grifo-X with greater look-down range and discrimination through the use of Fast-Fourier-Transform (FFT ) Doppler- filtering techniques. Two versions are developed: the 2800 (Grifo-M) for Mirage-series aircraft, using a circular flat-plate array, and the P2804 (Grifo-F), a reconfigured system with an ellipitical scanner that fits in the antenna bay of a Northrop F-5E aircraft.
Pakistan has ordered the Grifo-M for its Mirage III fleet, with an option for 50 more systems. Singapore has also selected the P2804 for retrofit into its F-5 fleet.
A more recent version of Grifo, the Grifo 7 designed for installation into the Chinese built F-7 (MiG-21) is now being manufactured and installed by PAC on PAF F-7P aircrafts. The Kamra Avionics & Radar factory is also responsible to maintain-repair the Grifo-7 after there induction and has the facilities to do so.
The best option for S-7 radar is the P2800 (Grifo-M), since S-7 doesn’t have the small nosecone problem as the F-7P for which P2800 (Grifo-M) was scaled down and renamed Grifo-7.
The Grifo-M is said to be an excellent radar system, and which according to PAF “is equivalent or slightly better than the existing APG-66 of the F-16 radar”.
In adverse weather conditions the P2800 (Griffo-M) has a range of 60 nm (69 mi, 111 km) with a look-down shot-down range of 17-20 nm (20-23 mi, 32-37 km).
Air-to-air
boresight acquisition (air combat)
dual target track
head-up display acquisition (air combat)
range-while-search (adaptive mode)
range-while-search (normal mode)
single target track
situational awareness
slew (air combat)
spot
track-while-scan
velocity search
vertical acquisition (air combat)
Air-to-surface
air-to-ground ranging
Doppler beam-sharpening 1 (8:1)
Doppler beam-sharpening 2 (64:1)
ground moving target indicator
ground/sea moving target track
real beam map
sea (low)
sea (high)
sea (single target track)
Navigation
beacon
terrain avoidance
weather.
mavaustinif you guys read the post on pakdef carefully, they said it snot a part of ROSE II, but ROSE III, yes. So, some Mirages also has ROSE III upgrade.
All I am saying is if PAF forced GRIFO to develop certain radar for an upgrade, there has to be a reason, not for **** and giggles.
mavaustincinci…. not to ruin your fun but most of them seems to be coming true…. :diablo:
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