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  • in reply to: J.E. Johnnie Johnson #1152093
    Beermat
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    Osprey show Pattle with 15.5 kills in a Gladiator, “50 +” in total, maybe there is something a little incongruous around the discussion, I recall reading about Pattle when I was 14 or so (when I was reading anything with a WW2 fighter association!) but it was a long while I think before his scores were widely recorded and mentioned.

    Tangmere (OK, it’s taken me a couple of months on here to be sure but.. you ARE Andy Saunders and I claim my five pounds) I don’t have the Shores ‘bible’ with me here – (and not wanting to be a numpty :)) – what does it say about Pattle?

    Otis, I can’t find anything anywhere about JEJ being a line-shooter when it comes to his score – but I would be as interested as you to find out what ‘wider reading’ your correspondent had done on the subject. My ‘library’ isn’t as comprehensive as all that.

    in reply to: J.E. Johnnie Johnson #1151963
    Beermat
    Participant

    Thanks!

    Matt “Not As Famous As Andy Saunders” Bearman

    in reply to: BBC 1 "Inside Out "19:30 hrs. Mon January 11th #1151993
    Beermat
    Participant

    Did I miss it? I turned on five mins ago and it was all about violin making…:confused:

    in reply to: Mystery Mustang 111 – KH494 #1151769
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    in reply to: J.E. Johnnie Johnson #1151172
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    BoB tallies in particular were often widly astray notwithstanding the relative simplicity of counting downed EAs.

    I’m with you for most of your post. But in the specific case of the BoB a count of downed EA on UK soil was nothing like an accurate measure. Apart from combat losses over the sea, one must also factor in that, with ‘friendly’ territory so close, German pilots would naturally head back to France when damaged. How many write-offs in occupied territory then occurred? Only German records could begin to provide relative accuracy here – and it was only the later availability of these records that began the rationalisation process (revisionism?) of RAF claims.

    This contemporary uncertaintly about enemy losses is common to a greater or lesser extent to most air battles.

    When the records are later compared, who actually was responsible – in retrospect – for the destruction of these ‘lost and found’ aircraft casualties is never going to be resolvable in every case – and so arguing for too long about precise numbers for individuals is a bit silly.

    In the case of Pattle – I must admit to being swayed by the evidence here! But these are still just claims, and my understanding is that the only comparison with Axis records ever performed on these claims can link only 27 aircraft losses to Pattle. The rest fall into that same grey area of probablilities. I’m too old and hairy to say we’ll never know, but…

    Having said all that, historical accuracy on a case-by-case basis – as per your uncle, Smith – is worth pursuing in my book.

    in reply to: Got a Jaguar GR3 For Sale? #1149585
    Beermat
    Participant

    Now dont quote me on this but ….

    The airframes …. are “owned and maintained” by Serco, who operate the school on behalf of the MOD for training RAF and foreign students. Serco are paid an annual fee to provide this service for a fixed number of airframes / students per year.

    oops, I’ve just quoted you on that.. sorry!

    The thing is, I don’t quite understand the economics of Serco – or anyone -owning ex-military assets then leasing / selling them back to the MOD – when the MOD owned them in the first place. Maybe I’m just being simplistic, but it all seems a bit “Alice in Wonderland”..

    A private company which must show a profit willl surely always take more taxpayers money to buy a service off than it would cost for that service to be provided internally?

    This is not a political point, just a practical one. Am I missing something here?

    in reply to: Got a Jaguar GR3 For Sale? #1149326
    Beermat
    Participant

    Understood, CADman. Thanks for clarifying!

    Of course, this doesn’t explain the 40k purchase of a Jag airframe as per original post.

    in reply to: 1940 Combat Reports #1148488
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    Participant

    Cotteswold – something you said made me think about a previous post of mine, and made me wonder whether I was being one of Austernj’s ‘numpties’.

    Combat reports – were they usually dictated verbatim, or ‘interpreted’ by Intelligence Officers, in your experience?

    I’d always assumed the former – but if it was the latter then my two earlier arm-waving proclamations – the one about the lack of a tactical overview being available to the writer, and the other about Polish combat reports – are (not for the first time) nonsense, and I apologise.

    in reply to: 1940 Combat Reports #1148364
    Beermat
    Participant

    Thanks Tim!

    Along with Andy’s post this is indeed interesting stuff, as ultimately (at risk of being grandiose) these documents form the basis of historical record, even though they weren’t intended that way!

    Hope the Scotch works – sounds like a good plan. Love to the Cotswolds – my old stamping ground.

    Matt in rain-sodden Cambridge

    in reply to: RBL Replica Spitfire #1148201
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    as an icon of WW2, the replica focuses the public’s mind away from this message and onto the past. This was borne out by the events it attended in 2009 – which were in the main retrospective celebrations.

    This is nonsense. Forgive me, but it really is.

    If these were retrospective ‘celebrations’ as Stuart puts it, then surely the people in attendence were already focussed on the past, and if this focus can be harnessed by a worthwhile cause (be it for the ‘younger service community’ or not) then so much the better.

    As for this younger ‘community’ (telling word, that) – Stuart, have you explained to them that when they get to a frail and vulnerable old age your charity will no longer be focussed on them either? I think you should.

    in reply to: Patrick (Patrique?) Reyre, Lancaster Captain #1148075
    Beermat
    Participant

    Thanks all so far!!

    Oops. Did I make the name ‘Patrique’ up?

    Kev – Nice work – that’s more than I had before! At least I know he wasn’t making it all up now (JOKE – he certainly wasn’t).

    Yes, I was worried about that, too, AM. I just hope that he’s not in the habit of self-Googling!

    Pat, if you are – you got me.

    in reply to: 1940 Combat Reports #1146733
    Beermat
    Participant

    That reminds me, Tim. There’s a bloke on here – ‘NewGuy’ – researching a film script on Robert Stanford Tuck. He asked a question about fighter command ‘gunnery competitions’ – basically, what would they involve?

    I think he drew something of a blank – maybe you’re the man for the job?

    in reply to: 1940 Combat Reports #1146605
    Beermat
    Participant

    I agree. The doubt would put me off as well.

    in reply to: 1940 Combat Reports #1146133
    Beermat
    Participant

    Yes, but in a historical sense, it must devaluate all combat reports. Unless they are stored in the RAF archive (or wherever the originals are stored).

    I’m know better than to doubt Tangmere1940, but just to illustrate the problem, let’s say we now have 2 different reports of the same event. If there is no official copy stored in some vault, they are both worthless, as it would be a matter of personal belief to attribute authenticity to any of them.

    I don’t know – if there are two examples of purportedly the same item, then it becomes easier to tell with some certainty. In the case of Kent’s report, I did go compare – and it’s interesting that while they both start out the same, they do then begin to diverge, describing the same events but in different terms. I think it’s reasonable to propose that the shorter of the two versions – the one that ends conveniently at the bottom of page one with another decision to go home (see my previous post) – is the paraphrased, and therefore secondary, version.

    All this notwithstanding the provenance as explained by Andy.

    Still, as I said – if in doubt, don’t buy – reducing the monetary value (the thing that causes the fakes to exist is their high monetary value) because of doubt doesn’t reduce the historical value of the genuine articles – what does reduce that historical value is the presence of fakes. Um.. I hope that made sense!

    in reply to: 1940 Combat Reports #1146177
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    Participant

    Go compare, chaps….!

    I guess that just about wraps it up for that one, then.

    In a previous post – which I then self-censored – I noticed the phrase at the end of the Kellet ‘report’ about deciding to return to refuel and re-arm, and I thought ‘as opposed to what, exactly?’. But then I realised that a) Tim has alluded to some doubtful things that crept into his combat reports and b) Certain people on here have seen many more examples than me.

    I guess the moral here is ‘if in ANY doubt because of a phrase or anything else which doesn’t look quite right, then don’t buy’.

    I’m not one for accepting the ‘oh well, what’s a fake anyway in this crazy world’ argument. The only thing that encourages more fakery is people thinking ‘I have doubts, but I’ll buy it anyway’.

    If it IS genuine, it isn’t lost just because you don’t own it.

Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 3,326 total)