Amazing he still flies – I met him at the Fairyhouse Racetrack Airshow in Dublin over 30 years ago. Me being about 17, I thought he was old back then! Good for him.
Im affraid thats not the case, you can build one if you like and call it somthing else but i think you will find you wont be able to call it a DH Moth, infact you may have trouble calling it a Moth at all.
Now the problem here is that the DH Moth range are still supported by DH support who hold the TCDS (Type Certificate Data Sheet) for the types.
This means that they are still, although out of production, Certified types.
You can obtain the drawings from DH Support at Duxford, however when you do you will have to sign a disclaimer that you will not build from the drawings. They are for referance use only durring rebuilds etc. British Aerospace still own the rights.
Now in the UK even the Gipsy is on a full Cof A not a permit, this changed a few years ago before someone leaps on me from a great height!!! Existing A/C that were on a Permit still are but new imports or rebuilds will be on a CofA. I know of one A/C that left the UK on a Permit and exported to the USA. When is was reimported it had to go onto a CofA!
In the USA the Gipsy is on the experimental cat, where as the Tiger in on a Standard cat CofA. This allows more lea way.
If you want to design and build a REPLICA Gipsy Moth you will need to design it yourself and get the design past the LAA who will treat it as a new type.
You will however have to be extreemly carefull not run foul of some nasty litigation fron British Aerospace i fear.
The Gipsy Moth is still a fully suported certified A/C in the UK, i have to admit to wishing it wasnt, it would make life alot easier!!
If you want to design and build you own
Nobody can stop you building a Gypsy or a Tiger Moth. Problems only arise if you choose to sell it as something it is not. It would not be a DH Moth in a legal sense, no. But if it looks like Moth, is built like a Moth, from the same materials and to the same specifications as a Moth, would that detract from the pleasure of of owning and flying what is, in all respects other than legal semantics, a Moth??
If I build one to the exact same specs it is a reproduction. Nobody in their right mind could be persuaded that is is anything else, nor would anyone in their right mind try to pass it off as an original. I differentiate between a “replica” and a “reproduction”; a reproduction is not merely a look-alike, but built exactly as the original.
Nobody can legally stop you from selling a kit of parts for a “Moth” or whatever you choose to call it, any more than they can stop you from building an Isaac’s Fury. (Which, in case anyone wonders, is not a “real” Hawker Fury…) It would just happen to be a very well proven, very authentic REPRODUCTION of something bearing an uncanny resemblance to a certain DeHavilland product. I am not talking about putting one in production as a certified airplane.
I still think the attitude is one of sheer snobbery. Who would suffer if people built Moths from plans? Would British Aerospace go out of business?
The nicest thing about flying is that, for the little amount of time you’re actually up there, it is a world of wood, metal, fabric and the laws of physics – none of the legal and paper bullsh.t that surrounds aviation can touch you……
Another question for you: how easy would it be to start manufacturing the Gipsy Moth (to buy complete and ready to fly) – perhaps utilising a welded steel fuselage frame (less parts = lower price) and a new engine? Would there be a market for such an elegant aeroplane, though? And would you buy an aircraft that although looked and flew like the original, contained parts probably manufactured in China and America (again to keep costs to a minimum)? One idea to reduce manufacturing costs perhaps would be to make each wing rib out of a single sheet of plywood cut my laser, or have them properly made in China, but not out of bamboo :o)
And how much would you be prepared to pay for one?
I had the same thought many years ago – with modern CNC equipment and an expensive, but reasonable price tag . I thought it ought to be possible to make a limited production run of Moths at a decent profit.
I contacted the Moth Club and asked advice about obtaining drawings – their reply was downright snooty! They don’t “approve” of people building replicas, I was told! People might (oh, the horror!) pass them off as real Moths!!! (Forgive the exclamation marks, but I am trying to get my incredulity across!!) What rubbish and what a stupid attitude.
I pity the poor gullible buyer who can’t read the construction date on the paperwork and thinks he is getting a 1930s/40s Moth….
If you built a Moth to original drawings and original specs it is a Moth, just not one built by D.H.
A point to remember:
The very first thing you should do is to make sure you pass the appropriate medical. If you can’t get a Firast Class medical then it’s all pointless.
Its my understanding that law abiding citizens have a right to carry a firearm in the state of Virginia where the recent massacre happened ?.
Technically in any state in the US it is legal to openly carry a legally held firearm. In practice it would lead you into endles hassles with cops and local laws and people who try to enforce laws they don’t even fully understand. The big difference is open and concealed carry. In Vermont , for example every citizen has the right to carry a concealed weapon without any special permit. Few do, but some certainly. I would. In most states this is not the case without lots of hassle and providing good reason. If only 10% of the population carried a concealed weapon and knew how and were willing to use them, I think that criminals would not be so eager to walk into a convenience store and wave a gun around.
Also the reluctance of people to use a weapon in self defense because of fear of legal repercussions plays a role. I’m sure people have died because of it.
I cant agree with your third point ,as far as I remember proof was required and I dont say most people handed in their guns and took the fair compensation offered because of some alledged Govt propaganda , I say it because thats what I saw , also very few firearms went abroad though I do know some that went to France.
All you had to say was you tossed it into the ocean. It would be up to the police to prove otherwise. This has been done on a few occasions and it held up in court. No authority can demand of anyone to prove a negative – logically or legally. But only some people had the guts to stannd up and do it.
Its my understanding that law abiding citizens have a right to carry a firearm in the state of Virginia where the recent massacre happened ?.
Technically in any state in the US it is legal to openly carry a legally held firearm. In practice it would lead you into endles hassles with cops and local laws and people who try to enforce laws they don’t even fully understand. The big difference is open and concealed carry. In Vermont , for example every citizen has the right to carry a concealed weapon without any special permit. Few do, but some certainly. I would. In most states this is not the case without lots of hassle and providing good reason. If only 10% of the population carried a concealed weapon and knew how and were willing to use them, I think that criminals would not be so eager to walk into a convenience store and wave a gun around.
Also the reluctance of people to use a weapon in self defense because of fear of legal repercussions plays a role. I’m sure people have died because of it.
I cant agree with your third point ,as far as I remember proof was required and I dont say most people handed in their guns and took the fair compensation offered because of some alledged Govt propaganda , I say it because thats what I saw , also very few firearms went abroad though I do know some that went to France.
All you had to say was you tossed it into the ocean. It would be up to the police to prove otherwise. This has been done on a few occasions and it held up in court. No authority can demand of anyone to prove a negative – logically or legally. But only some people had the guts to stannd up and do it.
No need!!??!
On the point of banning this that or the other based on a ‘need’ for it – do you need an aeroplane? Everybody knows they can be used to kill. They are just toys for the rich. Ban them. Especially those crazy homebuilt ones! Just shouldn’t be allowed.
Maybe if you can prove a need for one and your uncle is in the Masons and you pass a polygraph test and pay some outrageous fee and and….. maybe then we’ll let you rent a 150 a couple of times a year.
What do you mean, you simply enjoy aeroplanes and flying?? Do you really NEED to enjoy them??
Etc, etc ad nauseum, you get the point. I just want to be preserved from people trying to make laws to protect the lowest common denominator in society.
No need!!??!
On the point of banning this that or the other based on a ‘need’ for it – do you need an aeroplane? Everybody knows they can be used to kill. They are just toys for the rich. Ban them. Especially those crazy homebuilt ones! Just shouldn’t be allowed.
Maybe if you can prove a need for one and your uncle is in the Masons and you pass a polygraph test and pay some outrageous fee and and….. maybe then we’ll let you rent a 150 a couple of times a year.
What do you mean, you simply enjoy aeroplanes and flying?? Do you really NEED to enjoy them??
Etc, etc ad nauseum, you get the point. I just want to be preserved from people trying to make laws to protect the lowest common denominator in society.
Gun Control
All of these massacres would have been stopped in their tracks if every law-abiding citizen had the right to carry a firearm on his person. The problem in all these incidences is that NOBODY IS SHOOTING BACK!
I was very interested in shooting as a hooby when I lived in England until it became a dirty word. When I moved to the US in 1999, the first thing I did was buy a 1941 Lee-Enfield, just out of principle. Oh, and a 9mm CZ 75. It disgusts me that another country’s government trusts me to own these weapons, but my own (rather, my former) does not.
Oh, and the idea that most people handed in their guns for the cash is something the gov’t would like you to believe – most went abroad for safe keeping and a lot just disappeared – there was no requirement to prove what you had done with your weapon; all you had to say was that you had disposed of it.
Gun Control
All of these massacres would have been stopped in their tracks if every law-abiding citizen had the right to carry a firearm on his person. The problem in all these incidences is that NOBODY IS SHOOTING BACK!
I was very interested in shooting as a hooby when I lived in England until it became a dirty word. When I moved to the US in 1999, the first thing I did was buy a 1941 Lee-Enfield, just out of principle. Oh, and a 9mm CZ 75. It disgusts me that another country’s government trusts me to own these weapons, but my own (rather, my former) does not.
Oh, and the idea that most people handed in their guns for the cash is something the gov’t would like you to believe – most went abroad for safe keeping and a lot just disappeared – there was no requirement to prove what you had done with your weapon; all you had to say was that you had disposed of it.
Re. exorbitant landing fees
Speaking as a British Citizen now residing in one of the former colonies where there is plenty of sunshine, they speak (English (of sorts) aeroplanes are plentiful and very few airports charge anything – maybe it’s time for a revolution?
Damn’, I forgot – they took away all your guns long ago….
Passed checkride!
I finally got done , after an almost-cancellation yet again. I’m one happy camper. I was supposed to fly over to Riverside where the examiner has his office, my instructor didn’t come with me (he is off flying to Idaho), found the plane un-refuelled as usual, nobody in the office at 6.30 of course, bought my own fuel, called a briefer – he tells me Riverside airport will be closed all day from 9.30 to 5.00! My thoughts were along the lines of ?????? So I flew over there anyway and found there was a huge airshow starting. Landed in the company of lots of WW2 airplanes and other heavy metal flying around. 8.30 and no examiner at his office. I called him, hoping we could get out of there in time and perhaps we could do the test from Corona and I’d give him a ride back to the Riverside airport. He decided to meet me at Corona, I fly back there, more paperwork, and we go. This probably qualifies as one of the word’s shortest FAA checkrides: 0.9 hours and we’re done. Just three landings, five minutes of navigation stuff, five minutes of instruments etc. I was still nervous as hell since the first landing I gave him was mediocre and I thought perhaps I blew it right then. But I thought I did ok for the rest and when we got back gave him nice greaser of a landing, we taxied back and a handshake and more paperwork and we were done.
And finally for the first time since I was kid wishing I was on the other side of the fence at an airshow – I really was! Even if it was in a rickety old C-172….
ID
It is a Rotec engine, google it and you’ll see all about. There is also a version of this bike with the engine mounted sideways. The engines are virually entirely built on CNC machinery, unlike Mr Webster’s radials which are meticulously put together with the most basic, and sometimes ancient, of tools. I talked to him many years ago when I wanted to build my own engines and was very impressed with what a guy with an idea and a couple of bloody big files can achieve.
Cost of aeroplanes
Uhm – unions…?
Well, maybe for airliners etc.
As far as general aviation aircraft are concerned: back in the 80’s when the big three, Cessan and Piper and Beechcraft were pretty much forced to stop production, it was due to the fact they had to sell their products for about twice as much as necessary in order to cover Product Liability insurance. Somewhere I read a figure of around $50,000 per aircraft. The situation is better now, but still, it must be a big factor.
I don’t think greed comes into it very much; but bear in mind that these companies deal with people who have money to spend, not your average Joe, buying his new Chevy SUV.
As far as volume production goes – I really don’t think that comes into it any more these days. Technology is such that changing a major part is nothing more than feeding in some new numbers into your CNC machinery.
And as with cars, there just doesn’t seem to be any incentive to produce anything cheap – nobody wants to drive a Yugo, even if it does provide perfectly adequate transportation.
Good show!
Nice to hear you made it. Hope I’ll get there too Wednesday morning, though once again the weather might interfere. And this is California!!