Pete,
Most of the 25-yd range butts on RAF Stations were regularly “de-leaded” – i.e the bullets that had been fired into it were removed. I don’t think this was to recover the scrap value of the metal (the experts will, no doubt, give their thoughts) but was more to do with avoiding ricochets from incoming rounds from those already just below the surface! But as the Cpl i/c the Range at Benson used to explain to me “No problem with your rounds, Sir. They’re probably embedded in the woodwork holding up the corrugated iron roof!”. I presume the same procedure was applied to the longer ranges.
HTH
Resmoroh
If properly orchestrated it could make the opening of this forthcoming Olympic fest go with a bang! And the EU would have to pay for the reconstruction of the Kent/Essex coastline although I have heard that there are those who say that nothing but good can come from the Richard Montgomery removing large stretches of both coastlines. Indeed, they see it as an improvement!
Resmoroh
There was – at one stage – the carcase of a dead nuclear submarine moored and floating in Loch Ewe just off Aultbea. Apparently it nearly glowed in the dark, and nobody knew what to do with it as it was not safe to work on. I presume the half-life of dead nuclear submarines is fairly long? Don’t know if it’s still there.
HTH
Resmoroh
4-Minute Warning
The NATO Civil Defence Committee used to meet twice a year. Interminable squabblings over the precise wording of STANAGs, etc, – many will know the scene. The meteorology for the major annual exercise was decided upon (why I was there!). The Winter Meeting was always hosted by the UK (assorted Danes, Noggies, Cloggies, etc, would fight over which weekend it should be depending on which of the UK soccer team(s) they supported was playing in London!!). And whether there were sales in Bond Street that the delegations’ Sunray’s Moonbeams could attend. The Summer Meeting was usually hosted by one of the European countries in rotation.
One year we were in France. As part of the Host Nation social events the French organised a visit to Moet & Chandon at Epernay. Absolutely superb lunch in the M & C boardroom. Then a visit to The Underground Cellars. 20-million bottles of champagne! One of the UK delegation (who’s name escapes me!) opined that this was the best place in the world to be in when the 4-minute warning siren went! There were, I seem to remember, nods of approval from all!!
And you thought delivering A Bucket Of Sunshine was difficult!
Resmoroh
And further to last night’s programme, they didn’t tell you that if the Valiants were required to go off and “do the bizz” in winter then they had problems.
In certain Met conditions (can’t remember, but I think temp less than 3 C and Relative Humidity above 95%) they got engine intake icing. Dodgy.
The cure was the bleed off some of the engine exhaust gases and feed ’em back into the front to keep the intakes/swirl-vanes/bleed-valves, (or whatever), etc, etc, clear of ice.
This reduced the thrust. Full fuel-load and a Bucket Of Instant Sunshine in those conditions and you failed to become airborne. Even Met Men can appreciate that!! Those of you who know the Wittering runway will know that if your undercart is strong enough you can get nearly airborne halfway down and then “bounce” the a/c into the air (VTOLs need not reply!).
And then there were the Rocket Assisted Take-Offs trials. Burning rockets scattered over much of the very valuable farming land to the west of Wittering. Senior Officers running around shouting “Somebody do something”!!
Oxcart,
See the problem?!!!
HTH (but I know it don’t!)
Resmoroh
Pete,
The sight of Staish, running down the Ops Block corridor in the Cuban crisis, dressed in his Best Blue (but with his pyjama trousers sticking out of the bottom of his Best Blue trousers) is one that I shall not easily forget. I, too, considered building a nuke-proof shelter but it was only when I got on the Home Office Civil Defence Committee that I realised that the 4-Minute Warning really meant that you could have just one , slowly savoured, glass of that very expensive Red Screech you’d been saving before you became vapourised made the whole thing nugatory!
And Oxcart,
No, I am not considering writing a book. There are bits of any such putative tome that would cause many (who knew what was actually going on at the time!) to fall about immoderately. However, I am now of advanced years and I simply can’t be bothered with all the legal niff-naff and trivia that might result from any such publication. Interminable arguments from retired Very Senior Officers saying “I never said/did that”, and retired Very Junior NCOs saying “Yes, he bloody did!”. You may get the scene!!!!
After the next prog, however, I may be persuaded to put one or two facts down on paper/email. They will have limited circulation!
And Chox,
They (the “Ubendum Wemendum” brigade) still – like good engineers – hit V-Bombers with bigger and better ‘ammers. The Valiants leaked like sieves. The Engineers tried their hardest to cure the leaks, but to no avail. They simply put 40-gall oil drums under the worst leaks to catch the drips ‘cos PSA were complaining that the jet fuel was eating the hardstandings away! Good thing for us Met Men. We had to keep The Bare Earth Patch clear of vegetation – but without digging it up. A surreptitiously purloined pint (in the middle of the night) from one of these drip cans, and poured over the Bare Earth Patch ensured that nothing ever grew there. What it might have done for the Met readings is not known!
And Oxcart,
You can see the problems!
HTH
Resmoroh
Oxcart/Pete,
Took me back a few years! Many of the Valiant archive shots from Wittering showed some fresh-faced youths (now revered gentlemen!) that I used to go and play Station rugby with!!
Modern politicians give out all sorts of guff, but in those days they didn’t tell The Masses what was really happening. It was only if you worked on a V-Bomber Station that you knew that Mutually Assured Destruction meant precisely that!
What is more strange is that I was involved with the V-Force in its early days, and also involved during the Black Buck missions! Same like the Victor guy who went in to say farewell to the Staish at Marham and was asked if he was still fit. On replying in the affirmative was told “Oh good, we need a Co for Op CORPORATE. Go and draw some kit!!”
Resmoroh
Pete,
rather than treating us as a Third World Country
Proves the USA can get some things right!! It’s how the Brits treated 25% of the world’s surface area (and the populations therein) in the 18th, 19th, and a good bit of the 20th, Centuries.
Countries don’t fly their aviation hardware around the place for the benefit of a few air-show enthusiasts. It is either to display a political power-option to the lower orders (countries!), or to encourage recruitment. In the case of the UK neither, currently, applies – and is unlikely, ever, to do so again!
It might appear – to the outside viewer – that there are too many people in the UK, with too much time on their hands, and too much disposable income, which might suggest that the current recession, and ongoing Afghan folly, is a mere figment of the media’s imagination.
As an ex-Service Man, we need, I would suggest, to reduce the number of corteges passing down Wootton Basset High Street rather than complaining about the lack of hardware at some piffling commercially sponsored airshow junket.
Or have I – and/or you – got our priorities wrong?
I wait to be enlightened – I really do!
HTH
Resmoroh
Mountbatten had a lot to answer for in very many areas of UK life (particularly in the military) – and not for the best.
He was not the sharpest knife in the box, and had delusions of grandeur – very dangerous!!
Resmoroh
I was involved with the UK nuclear deterrent in three different phases. You can have no idea how difficult it was to get the Valiants across the N Atlantic at 40,000 ft in the early/mid-50’s. We, in Met, were practically making it up as we went along (just look at the normal commercial transatlantic crossing heights at the time!).
Then, at the height of the Cold War, we knew that if we had to deliver the Bucket Of Instant Sunshine then ‘our’ crews were on a one-way ticket. AND, even if you lived (as I did) only 15 miles from a V-bomber airfield, you knew that when “they” replied you were toast. But you couldn’t tell anybody that.
And later, when I was the Met Man on the Home Office Civil Defence Cttee, one learned just how little could be expected to be done for the vast majority of the population in a post-detonation environment. And (as a Reservist) I asked this Brigadier at a nuclear briefing “What my Unit would most likely be employed in?”. I expected to be told that we would be involved in some hairy meteorological enterprise(s). Not so. “Guarding Tesco wagons and shooting civilians, until you succumb to radiation sickness” was the somewhat chilling reply! But you couldn’t tell anybody that! Just remember that when you get shots or stories on the programme.
The technicalities will be fascinating – but there were people involved, don’t forget that!
HTH
Resmoroh
But he’s right! Very right!
Perhaps Dame Dierdre will be able to tell us. After all she is/was Vice Chair of the Financial Services Authority. Who better to publish a total, and detailed, account of the XH558 finances. It would set a lot of minds at rest, and, also, enable some logic and reasoned argument to be brought to bear on the problem.
From what one reads on WIX with regard to at least one ex-TFC airframe then it seems that if any of the Vulcan flight-crew, engineers, or (God forbid) even an adminstrator, should inadvertently pass wind in a loud and raucous fashion then XH558 will be grounded for ever! There has GOT to be a political agenda behind this!
Some of you out there (assuming you actually bothered to vote) may have chosen the wrong lot the last time. The politicians are, by and large, NOT historical air-show fanatics. Or even, if the current media are to be believed, current military air-show/Ops fanatics!
Some of you air-show fanatics had better come into the real, modern, world fairly quickly if your sport is to be retained!
Resmoroh
Loose Head, Hi (and/or anybody else for that matter).
Does anybody have a good contact in the Irish Air Corps on historical matters? I should point out that my interest is in some detail(s) before the Irish Air Corps (or, indeed, even the Irish Free State – as it then was) was invented!!
But if you don’t ask then the best is that you’ll be told to go forth and multiply. Been told to do that by some very Senior People – and often!!
TIA
Resmoroh
Fieldhawk, Hi,
Don’t blame the Civil Service mandarins for this appointment. This has all the hallmarks of a political appointment – and by a junior, and discredited Minister – such that if the appointment turns out to be a mistake then nobody senior in the Govt gets the blame. It can always be blamed on Hoon’s mistake!
It might be, of course, that Dame Deidre is making life difficult for the Food Mandarins – I don’t know. In this case the Food Mandarins will go to the CAA (or other Dept) Mandarins and ask if they can find somewhere to put this woman (obviously on ‘promotion’) to take her off their hands. Been done before, and will be done again! So to that extent it is Mandarin orientated, but I suspect political shennanigens behind all this!
All this, however, has nothing to do with historical aviation. It’s just that historical aviation may well get caught in the Fallout! I was a meteorologist. We had a number of Directors General (or whatever) during my more than 40-odd years in the Met Office. Some were better than others – but all knew their meteorology. The one who didn’t was a disaster.
Je reste ma valise.
Resmoroh
Appointed by that famous ex-Defence Secretary Geoff Hoon – say no more!
Biog (such as it is!) at http://www.industry-forum.org/biography.cfm?speakerid=27.
There is an old Chinese curse: “May you live in interesting times”. I feel that the historical aviation world may be in for some very interesting times indeed!
The good Dr Pleming will recognize a soul-mate!
Being old and retired as I am rarely has any perks, but not being involved with this lot is one of them!
Regretfully
Resmoroh
Quite apart from the mud-slinging (which is understandable) most of the posters are missing the crucial point. The penultimate para of Post #2181 encapsulates the problem. One does not “manage” a project of this size and complexity, one Commands & Controls it – and the man at the top is ultimately responsible. How he got there I do not know, but I would suggest that those responsible for putting him in post are keeping a very low profile! He does need to go – and immediately. Now whether that is by resignation – or by sacking – I do not know. The latter would be preferable as it would demonstrate that, at least, somebody has gripped this lamentable state of affairs. It would also have the advantage of warning any future employer of his abilities in projects of this nature! But, as in all these things, my guess is that to sack him would very, very, expensive indeed. Not quite “Fred The Shred” levels, but approaching it.
The “Air Show” fans are, needless to say, up in arms about the Vulcan problem. Which, if one takes a middle view, could probably have been avoided if everybody was singing from the same hymn sheet (or F.700). Those who were priviledged to have been at the first few Greenham Common airshows will know that much of it only happened because Tim Prince had the right spirit level and piece of string!
HTH
Resmoroh