saf2000I wonder if the following has been allowed by the so called neutral moderators to be discussed on this forum:
29 Military Aircraft Crashed in Three Years
New Delhi
In a damning indictment of state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), parliament was informed Wednesday that 26 of the 29 combat aircraft that crashed in the past three years had been manufactured, overhauled or upgraded by the company.
The Indian Air Force (IAF) operated all the 26 aircraft, which had 40-50 percent of their operational life left when they crashed, Defence Minister A.K. Antony said in a written reply in the Rajya Sabha.
The other three aircraft belonged to the Indian Navy, which has its own repair and maintenance facilities independent of HAL.
The IAF and the Indian Navy have ascribed the crashes to either human or technical failures.
Giving details, Antony said the IAF had lost eight MiG-21s, six Jaguars, four MiG-27s, four Mirages, three MiG-29s, and one Bison – an upgraded version of the MiG-21 during 2004-05 and 2006-07.
The Indian Navy lost three Sea Harriers during this period.
During 1992-2004, Antony said, HAL had manufactured two MiG-21s and overhauled eight, of which eight had crashed. In addition, the company had overhauled a Bison and upgraded another, of which one crashed.
In the case of the Jaguars, the company had manufactured three and overhauled five, of which six crashed.
In the case of the Mirages, HAL had overhauled four, all of which had crashed.
In the case of the MiG-27, HAL had manufactured three and overhauled a similar number, of which four crashed.
As for the MiG-29, HAL had overhauled three, all of which crashed.
Of the 29 crashes, 13 had occurred in 2004-05, and eight each in the subsequent two years.
Parliament’s Standing Committee on Defence, in a report tabled last month, had commented adversely on the depleting squadron strength of the IAF, calling for immediate acquisitions and upgrades.
“The committee feels that most of the aircraft in the inventory of the air force are quite old and, therefore, require immediate replacement. The committee also feels the upgradation programme of the air force which is a continuous process is proceeding at a very slow pace,” it had said.
“On the other hand, there has been under utilisation of funds allocated for the purpose during the last financial year 2006-07.
“In view of this, the committee strongly recommended that the ministry should take immediate steps for the ongoing acquisition and upgradation programme by utilising the entire funds allocated for the current year.”
The IAF that had in 2001 projected its requirement for 126 multi-role combat aircraft to ramp up its squadron levels and hopes to float a global tender in next two months.
saf2000Don’t get me wrong.. As I said, Pakistan will have a pretty potent force well suited to their real needs. As long as you quit the ridiculous idea of messing up with superpowers, you will see that you have more than adequate air cover.
Is India one of your superpowers?
PAF can never defeat Indian airforce but the Indians will never have the capability to achieve the kind of air superiority the Israelis have over the Arabs – unless that is if Uncle Sam delibrately helps the Indians to achieve that.
PAFs job is to make sure any IAF attack on pakistan proves costly to IAF. In a long war IAF wud win but in a short skirmish PAF wud give as good as it gets.
Long war is not a credible scenerio in the present climate, therefore the projected airforce will be more than adequete for detering any Indian attack based on the Israeli model.
I sometime get the impression that this is the Indian dream – they want to treat Pakistani airspace the way Israelis treat Lebanese and syrian airspace – but i don’t think this dream will be releaside anytime soon.
saf2000Musharraf in a red painted JF-17
http://news.yahoo.com/photo/070321/ids_photos_wl/r2595367275.jpg
saf2000Air Marshal Khalid Choudhry, Chairman of the Pakistan aeronautical Complex Board (PACB), accepted KDR’s exclusive interview. He disclosed that 8 JF17 fighters are now on the production line in Chengdu, and some of them will be delivered to Pakistan on March 23, 2007, the Independence Day of the country. These two JF17 fighters are expected to give demonstrative flights on the Independence Day, and the remaining JF17 fighters will all be delivered to Pakistan within 2007. In January 2008, Pakistan will start producing JF17 fighter.
Air Marshal Choudhry told KDR that the first batch of JF17 fighters would be fitted with Chinese-made radar systems, and currently two research institutes in Nanjing and Wuxi (KDR note: No.14 Institute and No.607 Institute) are bidding for the radar systems. Pakistan will make a decision upon completing all tests. Meanwhile, since the Pakistani Air Force has chosen the Grifo-7 radar system designed by Italian Galileo Avionica Company for F7PG fighter, Galileo Avionica hopes that eventually it will win the bid for JF17 radar system. “Pakistan is very clever. They will allow two Chinese companies to compete with each other first, and then get the Chinese compete with Western companies. If Pakistan requests, Galileo Avionica will provide Pakistan with the radar system for testing on JF17,” a source from Galileo Avionica said. KDR learned that the testing JF17 uses Chinese KLJ10 radar.
As for the weapon systems on JF17, China offered a number of choices, including LT-2 laser guided bombs, LS-6 GPS guided bombs and SD10 active radar guided AAMs. Nonetheless, Air Marshal Choudhry said that they are still assessing these offers and no final decisions have been made. JF17 can be fitted with either Chinese weapon systems or Western weapons.
As regard the application of RD93 engines, Air Marshal confirmed that “it is not an issue at all.” He said that Pakistan would formally begin manufacturing JF17fighters in January 2008. With technological assistance from China, installation of the production facility is now under way, and some of the equipments are imported from Western countries. The production output of JF17 after 2008 will be very much depending on the demand of the Pakistani Air Force, probably 15-20 annually. Air Marshal said that the eventual production plan would be more than 150, because the Pakistani Air Force needs to fully replace the existing hundreds of Mirage and J7 fighters.
Air Commodore Muhammad Kamal Alam, Managing Director of PACB, told KDR that the current plan is that RD93 will be serviced by China, but Pakistan has confidence that it would eventually maintain and repair the engines on its own, as Pakistan had the experience of repairing the American and French aviation engines simultaneously under extremely difficult conditions. He said that Pakistan planned to manufacture 15 JF17 fighters in 2008and another 20 in 2009.
According to the terms in the original JF17 production contract, eventually 50% of the production activity will be in Pakistan, and the final assembling will also be in Pakistan. There is also a plan to promote JF17 to the Sri Lanka Air Force.
_
KDR has confirmed that JF17 uses longitudinal quadroplex fly-by-wire (FBW) system, and the lateral flight control system is still mechanical. The FC1 designed in 2001 was planned to use longitudinal duplex FBW system while Air Marshal Choudhry said that the upgraded JF17 fighter would use all directional FBW system.
Br. General Raja Hafeez, Managing Director for aircraft manufacturing at PACB, told KDR that the unit price of JF17 would be under US$20 million.
At the same time of receiving JF17 fighters, Pakistan also plans to purchase 18 F16 Block 52 fighters during the first phase, and it also reserves the option of purchasing another 18 fighters of the same model. In addition, Pakistan will upgrade the F16 fighters currently in service. The F16 Block 52 fighter currently being promoted to Pakistan is fitted with external fuel tanks similar to the F16 Block 52 fighters of the Singaporean Air Force. A source from the Pakistani Air Force says that the weapon systems to be fitted on F16 Block 52 are still under final assessment.
Group Captain Arif Mahmood TI (M), Director of Human Resources Department of the Pakistani Air Force Headquarters, disclosed to KDR that Pakistan is now tired of the constant sanctions and technological restrictions of other countries, and thus earnestly hopes that it can manufacture fighters independently. Nonetheless, he frankly acknowledged that the pilots of the Air Force like the US-made F16 better, and annual training time of these pilots is 100-200 hours. The requirements for F16 pilots are different from those for other types of fighters, and they are often assigned with a variety of tasks.
KDR assumes that the Pakistani Air Force has already put the JF17 plan on the top of its priorities.
With JF17 fighters entering the Pakistani Air Force soon, the Chinese military enterprises have started to bid for the weapon systems to be fitted on JF17. The laser guided bombs currently fitted on JF17 is extremely similar to the LT-2 LGB developed by Luoyang Optical-Electro Technology Development Center. In addition, China also put on display at the 2006 Zhuhai Air Show another type of laser targeting pod specifically designed for JF17.
At the IDEAS 2006 in Karachi, NORINCO displayed a 500kg laser guided called GB1,
which uses a laser seeker similar to that of the Russian 155mm Krashnopol gun launched projectile. This GB1 LGB is semi-active guided, and along with it on the display platform are a laser target designation device and a laser targeting pod. _
KDR reported earlier that Xi’an Sicong Group has obtained one set of the Russian Krasnopol LGB laser seeker, and Russia has also transferred the technology of this laser seeker to China. Technical experts from Xi’an Sicong Group claim that before the technological transfer from Russia, they had developed a laser seeker similar to that of Krasnopol. This laser seeker can be used not only on guided projectiles, but also on other aviation bombs.
Sicong Group displayed the Chinese edition Krasnopol laser seeker at the 2006 Zhuhai Air Show for less than one day before removing it from the exhibition platform, indicating that the Chinese military forces are now armed with this system. A source says that they not only hope to introduce the GB1 LGB onto the JF17 fighters of the Pakistan Air Force, but that the A5 attackers currently in service in Pakistan can also use this laser guided bomb. Nonetheless, a source from the Pakistan Air Force told KDR that they do not have plans to upgrade A5 attackers at the moment, as the lifespan of A5s is almost coming to an end.
The physical structure of this 500kg GB1 LGB is almost identical to that of LT-2 LGB, with the only difference in their guidance systems.
The Pakistan Air Force has already acquired the US-made GBU12 LGB, and Pakistan is also producing GBU12 laser seeker under technological license from the US. Some Western military observers have even claimed that China acquired the GBU12 laser guidance technology from Pakistan in the earlier years. The laser guidance technologies of LT-2 and GBU12 belong to the same generation. Under this circumstance, LT-2 will be in face of challenges in the Pakistani market from the indigenous GBU12.
saf2000a report in daily news
Two JF-17 Thunders commissioned into PAF
By Mayed Ali
LAHORE: Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mehmood commissioned two JF-17 Thunders into the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) in a ceremony at Kamra on Monday.
These two Thunders had arrived at Kamra on March 2. They were moved to Pakistan in a cargo plane as against usual procedure of flying home. These two aircrafts were assembled at Kamra.
It was learnt the aircrafts were suppose to rumble the skies of Pakistan on Monday. However, the weather conditions were not conducive for the flight. These aircrafts will now fly on the first clear day. Before their first public flight on March 23, these aircrafts will keep flying for evaluation and test purposes. These aircrafts will stay at Kamra for the same purpose.
The PAF anticipates acquiring around 10-12 aircrafts by the end of this year. These aircrafts will arrive in intervals. The next batch of two aircrafts is expected within three months. After the arrival, these aircrafts will be put at the disposal of Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, Kamra (PAC) for tests, trial and probable upgradation and changes to meet the requirements of the PAF. Moreover, these aircrafts will be worked on by the PAC vis-à-vis specifications for diverse use, that is, for maritime operations, for air-to-air missions and for air-to-land missions.
does this mean PAF is going to conduct weapons integration iteself?
saf2000there r rumours that antonov an124 has arrived in pakistan carrying 2 jf-17s (pt-04 and pt-06). any news or clarifications?
saf2000So was there this much hooha in the western media when it was done? And is the US totally abandoning any future research into ASAT weapons or space born weapons platforms?
exactly my point
saf2000i find the self rightous-indignation of some nations (especially the english speaking nations) at this test very nauseating.
it is understandable that chinas neighbours shud be concerned but countries like UK and australia stay silent when US unilateraly tests and develops space weapons and refuses to ban space weapons, but start bleating weasel words when some non-western non-english speaking country does the same.
They seem to believe that space and space technology shud stay the exclusive preserve of the US.
the chinese have as much right to develop these weapons as the US.
saf2000as for the fc-1 i quote a news report:
Pak Air Force to induct Chinese JF-17 Thunder aircraft
Updated at 1940 PST
ISLAMABAD: China is to start production of a small batch of JF-17 (Thunder) combat aircraft by June-July for their induction in the Pakistan Air Force in 2007, a PAF official said on Saturday.
“We hope to induct a first small batch of four aircraft in our air force in early 2007,” the official said.
He said the fourth prototype of JF-17 jet successfully carried out its test flight in China Friday, paving the way for commencement of the aircraft’s production by June-July this year.
Conceived in 1992, the JF-17 project was jointly undertaken and pursued by Pakistan and China until the first prototype carried out its maiden flight in September 2003.
Pakistan may also begin serial production of the JF-17s by June 2007 as part of its plans to replace ageing aircraft from the inventory of the PAF.
china is to start small scale batch production and then PAC may start serial production in 2007 – presumably if all the testing goes well. since china already has experience of devloping J10 and there are no new ground breaking technologies in fc-1 the testing shud go well.
saf2000yeah ? prove it// some of the MiG-21Bis are of 70s and 80s vintage..the Mirages are even older and so are the F-7s..not the PGs, but the older F-7Ps. and those most numerous fighters are now being upgraded to a Bison standard that no F-7 is at.
IAF decided to purchase mig21s back in 1962 and HAL started assembling them around 1966. Most of the migs in indian service are from the 1970s.
Pakistan first recieved mirage in 1967 and the last new deliveries was made in 1982 by the french
As for the F7s – they are newer than even F16s in PAF service. PAF decided to purchase them in the late 1980s from china after the US refused to supply any more F16s. F-7pgs are even newer – becoming operational in 2002.
New avionics and BVR capabilbity means that bison can hold its own but that does not mean that the basic airframes and engines are any newer. the indian media still calls the mig21 a flying coffin.
don’t get me wrong i am not saying that PAF is superior to IAF – but it is wrong of indians to assume that IAF will be able to dismiss the PAF like swoting a fly.
PAF has been heavily sanctioned and operates under a much lower budget than IAF. Despite all that it has still remained a credible force.
saf2000I would hate to see these ladies fly ancient Mirages and F-7’s.
What a gentleman i am. :diablo:
Most F7s and even some mirages in PAF service were built after ancient mig21 that IAF flies – still the most numerous fighter in the IAF
saf2000ISLAMABAD, March 11(Online): The contract of infrastructure development of JF-17 (Thunder) aircraft has been awarded to M/S China State Construction Engineering Corporation.
In this regard, a contract signing ceremony was held at Air Headquarters on Friday. The contract has been awarded to M/S China State Construction Engineering Corporation, which is one of the leading Chinese construction companies. According to the co-development plan the contract was awarded by CATIC to CSCEC in the presence of the representatives from Aircraft Manufacturing Factory Kamra. The ceremony was attended by Air Chief Marshal Kaleem Saadat, Chief of the Air Staff, Air Marshal Tanvir Mehmood Ahmed, Chief of the Air Staff (designate), Mr Mao Siwei Acting Chinese Ambassador, Air Marshal Aurangzeb Khan, Chairman Pakistan Aeronautical Complex Board Kamra, Air Vice Marshal Shahid Latif, Chief Project Director JF-17, Senior Colonel Li Mengyan Defence Attaché China and several other senior officials of both the sides.
According to the contract, CSCEC will construct state of the art infrastructure as per Chinese aviation standards. JF-17 Thunder is a co-design, co-development and co-production project between China and Pakistan. Production of this aircraft at Pakistan Aeronautical Complex will usher in new era of aviation technology in Pakistan and this aircraft will form the backbone of Pakistan Air Force. The aircraft is equipped with latest avionics and it will carry all types of weapons.
saf2000What the americans think (excerpt from a wide ranging article):
http://www.strategycenter.net/resear…pub_detail.asp
This is on the most recent trip by Musharraf to China
Musharraf Visits China: Current Issues In Pakistan-China Relations
by Richard Fisher, Jr.
Published on February 25th, 2006
ARTICLES
On February 23 President Musharraf took a day to visit Sichuan Province and the Chengdu Aircraft Company, where he was photographed in the cockpit of a new FC-1 fighter, called the JF-17 “Thunder” in Pakistan service.[14] In 1999 Pakistan and China agreed to co-develop and co-produce Chengdu’s FC-1 lightweight fighter, which had originally started in the late 1980s as a co-development of the J-7 fighter with the former U.S. Grumman Corporation. The FC-1 has been in flight testing since 2003, is now undergoing design refinements and is expected to begin production within a year, and enter Pakistan Air Force service by 2009.[15] Pakistan has a stated requirement for 150 and most will be co-produced in Pakistan. With an expected cost of less than $20 million each, the FC-1 is a modern multi-role fighter that can fire advanced self-guided medium range air-to-air missile and deliver precision guided air-to-ground weapons, which the U.S. F-16 can do too with somewhat better performance, but at about double the price. While chances are good the FC-1 will be purchased by the Chinese military, that has not materialized, but with Pakistan’s help, Chengdu now has a modern fighter that will soon compete with U.S., Russian and European fighters in the low-price market.
Pakistan is also considering the purchase of the more capable Chengdu J-10. Depending on the availability of the U.S. F-16, Pakistan’s Air Force Commander Air Marshal Kaleem Sadat has noted that Chengdu’s more capable J-10 is also an option for Pakistan. In September 2004 he noted that Pakistani pilots were to test the J-10 later that year.[16] The J-10 is just now entering Chinese Air Force regiments and offers performance and weapons capabilities that are more comparable to modern variants of the F-16. Soon upgraded versions will feature a thrust-vectored engine[17] and possibly new electronics[18], enhancing the maneuverability of this already quite agile canard fighter. If as expected, China meets with success in building its indigenous WS-10A turbofan engine, Pakistan may view a thrust-vectored engined J-10 as its match for India’s thrust-vectored engined Sukhoi Su-30MKI. So even if Pakistan does purchase more F-16s that does not rule out a future J-10 purchase.
saf2000http://www.dawn.com/2005/08/22/top3.htm
Pakistan to launch remote sensing satellite system
By Our Staff Reporter
ISLAMABAD, Aug 21: Pakistan plans to launch a self-controlled Remote Sensing Satellite System (RSSS) at a cost of Rs19.3 billion to ensure strategic and unconditional supply of satellite remote sensing data for any part of the globe over the year.
According to sources, the project will be executed by the Pakistan Space and Upper Atmosphere Research Commission (Suparco) over a period of six years. President Gen Pervez Musharraf has approved the project in principle.
The project will require another recurring expenditure of about Rs150 million per year and overall working expenses of about Rs1.15 billion.
The president, sources said, had directed Suparco to develop the capability to make and launch different types of satellites, specially, communications, remote sensing and weather satellites.
Pakistan’s space programme must contribute in the areas of mass education, information technology, communications, agriculture, mineral development, mapping and geographic information system, atmospheric sciences, environment and pollution monitoring and in various areas of national security, the president said.
On the completion of the project, high resolution satellite images will be available for national defence and security in any critical time. They will also enable universities and non-profit organisations to obtain satellite remote sensing data and carry out analysis for other application areas.
The project will help Pakistani engineers acquire comprehensive know-how and technology transfer. Thus, it will be a vital support for future in-house Pakistan remote sensing satellites of world standards to meet demands of enhanced capabilities.
This will help Pakistan coup with the commercial and strategic needs and open a new era of applied research and new trends for planning and implementation of public sector development projects for socio-economic uplift of the country.
Pakistan entered into space era in 1990 with the launch of its first experimental satellite Badr-1, an indigenous effort of Suparco, launched in low earth orbit by a Chinese vehicle from XI Chang Launch Centre.
Second satellite of Pakistan, Badr-2, launched in 2001, carried an experimental earth imaging payload.
The RSSS is highly sophisticated, application oriented, high resolution satellite that will be first of its kind in Pakistan to directly address the demands of today’s market.
saf2000according to janes babur shares similarities with tomahawk. Can anyone with full access to the article share it with us?
JANES DEFENCE NEWS
17-Aug-2005
The Pakistani Babur cruise missile seems to share several basic similarities with the US BGM-109 Tomahawk……………
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