saf2000interesting report:
Move to replenish Pak air power
PAF gets air surveillance system; PIA to replace Fokkers with SAAB
By Kamran Khan
Karachi: Pakistan has taken a big leap to strengthen its fast depleting air power by securing a nod from Sweden to sell Islamabad an Airborne Early Warning and Control System (AWE&CS), informed sources said.
This state-of-the-art system will also augment Pakistan Navy’s existing potential for maritime and tactical surveillance, the sources added. Close to final approval is Pakistan’s decision to acquire 14 SAAB 2000 aircraft from Sweden. Seven of these aircraft will be dedicated for the PAF’s AWE&CS while the remaining seven will be acquired by the PIA to replace its fleet of Fokker aircraft, which have already been grounded, the sources said.
Several Fokker-related incidents, including the last year’s crash that killed the then chief of air staff, air marshal Mushaf Ali Mir, and 17 other PAF officials, the PIA had decided last year to sell its fleet of 11 aircraft and replace them with compatible ones.
The seven SAAB 2000 that will replace the ageing Fokkers on the PIA’s heavily subsidised socio-economic routes will help the airline save about Rs 200 million on the subsidised routes that cost the PIA about Rs 400 million every year.
Because of the composite nature of the deal, the PIA would pay only $45 million for the seven SAAB aircraft as against the $98 million for the French ATR and $91 million for the American Dash-8 that will cost about $98 million.
For its part the Swedish government has provided a guarantee for the smooth supply of SAAB spare parts as long as the aircraft is flown anywhere in the world, the PIA sources confirmed. Six hundred of such planes are being flown all over the world.
The SAAB aircraft for the PAF will be equipped with ERIEYE AWE&C system which can manage airborne early warning; intercept communication; airspace management; surveillance and control borders; detect illegal shipment of weapons and drugs; and coordinate search and rescue operations. It will be two years before the PAF receives its first AWE&C system.
The deal would cost Pakistan about $1.7 billion (approximately Rs 90 billion) during the next five years, and it will constitute the biggest defence purchase by the Musharraf administration.
During his recently concluded visit to Sweden, President Pervez Musharraf is understood to have held extensive discussions with the Swedish leadership on Pakistan’s interest in the AWE&CS, sources familiar with the discussions in Sweden said. Sweden had earlier turned down Pakistan’s requests on the reasons ranging from democracy to child labour. Chief of Air Staff Air Marshal Sa’adat Kaleem will be visiting Sweden to further negotiate the deal later this month. The sources said the AWE&CS would not only help Pakistan to counter-balance the Indian acquisition of the Israeli Phalcon airborne surveillance system, it will boast the Pakistan Air Force’s and the Navy’s reaction capabilities by providing early and specific warnings.
In the Rs 7.6 trillion defence budget announced this week, the Indian government has earmarked the largest sum for country’s air force by committing to buy new combat aircraft, airborne warning and control systems and missiles during the current year.
“The AWE&CS from Sweden, F-7 from China, upgraded Mirages from France and fresh supplies of Mirage spare parts from Libya would help the PAF meet the air challenge from our arch rival,” commented a retired PAF air marshal.
Pakistan had first shown interest in the purchase of AWE&CS from Sweden in 1995 when the then Pakistani prime minister, Benazir Bhutto, had visited Stockholm and had requested the then Swedish premier, Olf Palme, to approve the sale. “For nine years we have tried to secure these aircraft from SAAB/Erricson,” said an official source.
While the PAF made a determined effort to induct the SAAB AWE&CS into its fleet, but in its process to replace the Fokkers, the PIA tested the SAAB 2000, fitted with engine from Allison/Rolls Royce ATR and Dash-8 fitted with engines from Pratt and Whitney.
With the PAF’s deal for SAAB-based AEW&C almost complete, it is now almost certain that the PIA would approve a strong internal recommendation for the SAAB 2000. “It makes more sense because the SAAB will be setting facility for the maintenance of the PAF’s SAAB 2000 in the country,” said an official. “It’s much feasible, both financially as well as technically, to have a combined maintenance facility for the PAF’s and the PIA’s SAAB fleet.”
saf2000No mate, Pakistan rejected the offer plain and simple.
It wasn’t plain and simple
i don’t know how old you are but i am old enough to remember when this issue made headlines in pakistan. it was in mid 1970s when PAF was in the market for new aircraft and US navy had surplus A7s. It wasn’t an offer -Pakistanis wanted an offordable fighter and Ford adminstration agreed to upgrade and supply these surplus A7s to PAF. But when Carter came to power he insisted that Pakistan roll back it nuclear program before A7s are delivered, which Pakistan refused. Had Carter not won the election PAF would have had A7s in its inventory. The A7s were being upgraded for PAF use at the time and i think were subsequently supplied to another country – may be Portugal but i am not sure.
Right upto the 1980s i can remember aviation books and magazines showing A7s as part of PAF inventory.
It was Reagan who agreed to supply F16s. Since then Pakistan goverments prefer Republican presidents to Democrats, because Ford and Reagan were both Republicans and Carter was a Democrat.
At the time this issue caused a lot of anger in Pakistan but becuz of Russian invasion of Afghanistan and supply of F16s people have forgotten the details of this issue. If you ask around in Pakdef forum someone may be able to provide you with the details but then again people who remember the details of this issue are probably too old to sit around surfing the web.
saf2000Pakistan was offered 110 A-7 Crosairs in 1975 by Nixon/Ford Admin as carrot to lure Pakistan away from its nuclear program. Pakistan rejected this offer!
I would be very interested in seeing photos of an A-7 in PAF colours
This was not a carrot to lure Pakistan away form nukes. Pakistan was actually offered A7s by Nixon/Ford admin without any restrictions and the offer was accepted but b4 they were delivered Carter won the presidential elections and he cancelled the agreement becuz of pakistans nuke program – it was his election pledge to be more strict on nuclear prolifiration and human rights. Then the Soviets invaded afghanistan and Pakistan became Washingtons ally again – but by then PAF did not want to settle for anything less than F16.
saf2000i think this exercise probably helped USAF more than it did the IAF. Lets face it – it is very unlikely that IAF is going to meet any force comparable to USAF in a real war. But it is more than likely that sometime in future USAF is going to come face to face with Su27/30s and upgraded mig21s.
In that situation USAF will not be satisfied with simply getting more kills than the the enemy. USAF will demand total domination of the air and to do that they will require F22.
saf2000what does Mushak mean in Urdu ?
I’ve looked it up in urdu- to- english dictionary where it has number of meanings depending on the context in which it is used. The following were given in dictionary:
proficient
practised
expert
which i must admit is rather down to earth name given the usual practice of giving extravagent names to weapons systems in that part of the world.
saf2000getting back to the subject, would it not be better for PAF to concentrate on Fc-1? Fc-1 and Gripen are similar in size – though Fc-1 is probably heavier becuz it does not use composites.
According to the latest issue of AFM PAF would like to put Fc-1 through a number of upgrades. Acccording to AFM interview with JF-17 project director PAF wud like to improve its thrust to weight/ratio. With these improvements together with decent avionics and radar package fc-1 could easily match Gripen.
The money spent on gripen wud be better spent on improving Fc-1s performance becuz PAF cud get more aircraft for the same money – though getting latest avionics and radar could pose a problem.
saf2000the initial version inducted earlier will be upgraded as well or the newer versions will have the enhancements?
the project director was talking about upgrades during the whole life time of JF-17. It would be possible be upgrade certain features on initial versions, but the impression i got is that he was talking about improving the whole platform by redesign. Once they have a flyable hardware then they can start thinking about improvements just look at F16 – first we had F16As then F16Cs and now blk 60.
The same is true of other even more advanced projects around the world. For example the Eurofoghter was manufactured in 3 tranches. Tranche-1 were the initial prototypes for testing and validation, Tranhe-2 (present position) are the initial production versions that are going into service and Tranche-3 will probably come in 2010-12 and will have such thing as thrust vectoring more stealth features etc.
Something similar will happen to Fc-1 – though i am not claiming that that it will have anywhere near the capabilities of eurofighter.
saf2000Will the ‘Future’ Enhancements be in the initial production models?
No – they will be part of future upgrades
saf2000but when?
he did not say when, but i wud imagine when the chinese officially acknowledge its existence – correct me if i am wrong but the chinese have not done this yet.
saf2000According to the latest edition of AFM Pakistan AF chief has confirmed that PAF will acquire J10 – though no contract has been signed yet.
saf2000Has anyone seen latest edition of AFM? the latest edition carries PAF chiefs interviw with editor Alan Warnes. According to the editorial Alan Warnes was impressed with the progress of Fc-1. Alan Warnes described Fc-1 as cheap but capable. In the report it was stated the fc-1 is the first aircraft designed by the airforce.
Main points:
1) According to the PAF Project director for JF-17 Grifo radar will be used on initial models for trial and validation only – final radar is yet to be decided
2) Future enhancement in terms of increased thrust, stealth capabilities etc are likely
3) PAF chief has confirmed that PAF will acquire J10 (though no contract has been signed)
saf2000The reason why i asked about the difference is becuz JAR 145 makes a clear distinction between line maitenance and base maintenance. for instance an organisation certified only to carry out base maintenance is not allowed to carry out line maintenance unless they are separatly certified to do so.
saf2000Thanks Mathew
So the difference between “Line Maintenance” and “Base Maintenance” is the location at which the maintenace work is done, not the level of work carried out?
If the work is done away from base, no matter how major, is it always regarded as “Line Maintenance”?
saf2000Russians have good experience of fabricating titanium, but they r behind in other processes and materials. For example the Eurofighters structural parts are made of Carbon fibre Composites (CFC).70% of its outer skin is CF.
Russian aircraft tend to be heavier than their western counter parts and rely on brute power to obtain the same performance. This results in using thirsty engines, hence short range. This is the main reason why Russians have not been able to produce a single engined aircraft to match the performance (in terms of payload, range etc.) of F16 or Mirage2K.
For example to counter F16 (blk60) with a Russian aircraft would require twin engined Su30 which is a huge machine compared to the F16 and would result in bigger runing costs. Mig29SMT may be good in a short range shooting match but it cannot match the F16 in alround performance.
saf2000It looks stealthy. Will it really have any stealth features?
Sign In
