The things are not as simple as you pretend the Russians are working on a F-22 counterpart but they are not going to design a F-117 NightBrick because they know the F-117 flies like a brick, the F-117 carries no air to air missiles because in 1987 they knew even a MiG-21 could shoot it down.

In fact, MiG-23MLD it is you who is pretending. The F-117 is nothing more than a highly survivable medium level precision attack aircraft design to avoid detection by avoiding the search systems required to put the Mig 21 within range of it.

The F-117 Nightbrick has not Thrust vectoring, lacks Supercruise and more important it is only effective at night[/B] it won`t fly beyond Mach 1

The whole point of this thread is what the state of play was in 1987 not now or in 2010. The only aircraft with supercruise in service at the time were large and came in black (and based at Mildenhall) or white (and had BA and AF logos on the tails). The only aircraft in Europe with Thrust Vectoring at the time had RAF roundels on them. The F-117 was not supersonic for one very important reason. When an aircraft travels at supersonic speed it produces a wall of highly compressed air in a wide cone. That compressed air is quite dense close to the aircraft and will reflect radio energy back towards the point of transmission. A F-117 at Mach 1 would have a big problem, namely OPPS where’s my stealth gone!!!!

nothing just flight at night

Yes the F-117 would have flown only at night, however why on earth would you want to operate in the one environmental condition were you have a major disadvantage?

and pray the WP had no SAM or fighters near it`s flight path besides hope the mission planner did do his job in avoiding areas with high concentration of Radars and SAMs so his F-117 could have been out of the reach of the Radars and SAMs that were capable of shoot him down.

The F-117 pilot does not have to do any praying at all, as the aircraft is fitted with a quite sophisticated radar detection system that allows the pilot to detect unknown threats and take avoiding action before he is detected (The F-117 pilot does have a problem if that system fails or the RCS of the aircraft is compromised in anyway however 😉 ). Also what makes you think that any WP Radar or SAM operator could have seen the faint echo of a F-117 when their scopes were full of the electronic noise being thrown at them by the NATO jammers (Compass Call, Raven’s and ground based systems, plus any overspill from the WP’s own jamming effort. The RF electromagnetic spectrum is not that wide).

so what could a F-117 pilot done in 1987?

Looking at the big picture, the F-117’s chances of getting into the target areas were very good and net result on the first night would have been most of the East German fixed air defence command and control system – GONE. Major river bridges in East Germany and Poland – GONE (A pontoon bridge cannot take the weight of a 700 ton train loaded with tanks) plus a number of other high valve target’s hit) A major headache for the WP commanders in air defence command and control and logistics resupply.

In 2010 Russia will have real F-22 counterparts why because intelligence is a virtue any human has so if the US can build a F-22 so the Chinese or Russians if they want;)

Knowing it can be done is one thing, having the technical expertise to actually do it without having done all of the R&D work is a completely different matter.

The A-7, A-10, Buccanneer, Su-25 and even Nimrod can carry air – air missiles for self defence. Does not make them fighters, does it.

In theory No, however A-10s got more air to air kills than F-16’s in Gulf War 1 and with that Gun.[/QUOTE]

Yep, the F-111B was supposed to be a fighter. However performance was fair to bloody awful.

Quite 😀 😀 😀

F-104: useless as fighter. Only successful as -G in european service and there with a very specific target: drop the bomb!

Not Quite, It did have other roles, anybody got the record?

I agree. The F-111 should have been called the A-7, the A-7 the A-8 and the AV-8 the AV-9. Or better still the F-111 should have been called the F/B-111 from the start. The best solution methinks….

Of course, many fast jet pilots perhaps did not like the idea of flying a bomber. With the F-111, thy could still call themselves fighter pilots or at the very least fighter bomber pilots. After all, this is what the media calls them….

F-111B was intended to be a fighter as its primary role, hence the F designation is not as pants as it first sounds. Also the later F-111F could carry sidewinders , hence it could engage other aircraft in flight, which in a way is the definition of a fighter aircraft.

On the subject of lack of power from the Rb199 the EJ200 has been considered as an upgrade path for the various Tornado in service at the moment.

On another note the Rb199 does have a good power to weight ratio and is still considered as a possible powerplant for any future British Land speed record attempt.

I don’t think anybody will do much past Thrust SSC’s record and definitely not with RB199’s. The problem being the car’s shockwave virtually destroys the ground in front of the car and the rolling drag on the wheels then goes through the roof. Thrust SSC was designed to do 850 MPH, it got to Mach 1 at full power and could not go any faster.

don’t think that the EJ200 will go into the Tornado either.

Also the Tornado faced some significant delays and cuts the aircraft was finally a success story. But initionally the aircraft suffered under its insufficient weaponary. That has now been fixed. The type is a class of its own, however as low level flights are less demanded today the Tornado is becoming obsolete in that direction as its engine thrust is simply to low at altitude and low level the type is unmatched.

Tornado IDS is the basic multirole ground attack version
Tornado ADV is the interceptor derivate
Tornado ECR a specialized design based on the IDS for SEAD (reconaissance role was given up)

The Tornado in its particular version will stay into service until at least 2020 or maybe even 2025. The aircraft has proven its capabilities in combat and showed that Europe can built such a complex weapon systems beyond country borders.

Thanks to the RWHS fitted to the F3 and some upgrades, the RAF F3 can be used as a SEAD role with ALARM missiles. However it loses the abillity to carry AMRAAM with the ALARM fit.

Victor, for reasons above

All interesting theories, that ignore one naked fact: There would be no suprise to the attack.

-Potsdam agreement – People on both sides driving around in cars being able to view ground and notice ( report ) any change in forces and build up.

-The intense amount of SIGINT, ELINT, COMINT activity going on.

-Other traditional recon assets. U2 (SAR slant range imaging ), space imaging etc.

-Any build up to attack level would take time, and be noted. Good luck.

EXACTLY !!!!