BIGVERN1966Actually B47s flew spy flights in the Cold War over the USSR so I suppose they did see sharp end operational service.
I think one was actually shot down and one did get back with damage done to it by a Mig. Again, I think the Lightning’s did see action with the Saudis.
BIGVERN1966Thanks! This afternoon I photographed the wreckage of Geigers 110, including the tailfin of his 110 with a lot of killmarks (almost all with a RAF roundel).It arrived at the ARG museum in Heemskerk some weeks ago. Got me interested in the subject.
BW Roger
Wing Commander J R D (Bob) Braham was flying a Beaufighter VIf X8147 of 141 Squadron based at Wittering, The squadron’s aircraft had however started the sortie from Coltishall, as part of a large scale Serrate / Intruder mission in support of an attack by Bomber Command attack on Bochum in the Ruhr. The force consisting of 7 Beaufighters of 141 Sqn and 6 Mosquitoes (3 from 25 Sqn and 3 from 410 Sqn). Braham and a Flt Lt Forshaw were the first two pilots to depart in Beaufighters at 1930 hours local (Forshaw at 1930, Braham at 1922). The rest of the force failed to take off as the mission was cancelled soon after due to bad weather, Braham and Forshaw did not receive the recall order and proceeded their patrol areas. Forshaw made no contacts and landed back at Coltishall at 2215 hours local. Braham shot down Geigers Me-110 over the Zuider Zee (time unknown from my source, however I have seen it in the Squadron ORB), he then acquired a Ju88, which he engaged, however the cannons on the Beaufighter jammed and the aircraft escaped. Braham was accompanied in the aircraft by his Navigator/Serrate/AI Mk 4 operator (no idea of the person in the aircraft at the time as Braham usually flew with one of two Navigators while on 141 Squadron.) and a Major McGovern, (the CO of a USAAF P-38 Lightning Squadron that was located at Wittering and was a good friend of Braham) who had gone along for a ride. Braham landed at Coltishall at 2215 after having a close shave with Army light flak as the aircraft crossed the Norfolk coast between Hemsbey and Winterton on the return leg. It was Braham last operational flight with the Squadron as Commanding Officer as he was posted to a staff course shortly after. Geiger was also his 20th night victory, taking his night score above that of the then top scoring British night fighter pilot with John ‘Cats Eyes, Cunningham at the time.
Source of information RAF Coltishall ORB for September 1943 and Braham’s autobiography ‘Scramble’ (Published as Night Fighter in the US) which was written in 1961.
BIGVERN1966Alot of these speed records set by America are a bit of a cheat don’t you think! I mean Rocket power V Jet… :rolleyes:
‘Thank you, do I leave through here…’ 😮
FD2 set official FIA record with 2 way run in opposite directions over a measured distance within a limited time. X1 and other X planes the speed recorded was peak velocity and the aircraft could not met the FIA regs.
BIGVERN1966Humm, I’m going to enjoy this….
You Bloodhound wallahs should bless my friend Sandys. Mk.1 was so useless that RAF chose Thunderbird Mk.2.
You are correct in that statement to a point, Yes the RAF did order Thunderbird 2 in mid to late 1957. The reason was not because the Bloodhound 1 was so useless, but because Thunderbird 2 was the only Stage 1 ½ SAGW under development at the time. (Trials with the Prototype Red Duster had been suspend due to ramjet extinctions and rear signal receivers losing lock, problems that Bristol and Ferranti wanted to investigate and fix before resumption of firings). Bristol and Ferranti up to the April of 1957 had been working on a follow on to Bloodhound 1, code named Blue Envoy for both the RAF and the Royal Navy (it was a join program as a cost saving measure. The navy then pulled out of the project, as they wanted a missile that was a lot smaller, so to be more manageable on a ship. Due to the cost increase incurred by the navy pulling out, and the additional cost of the mid course guidance system required for Blue Envoy to meat the Stage 1 3/4 spec, Sandys cancelled the project in early 1957). The RAF order for Bloodhound 1 was never cancelled, even after the Thunderbird 2 was ordered. But the total number ordered was reduced from 800 to 700 (that number including the rounds required for service acceptance firings and service firings post introduction into service). Bloodhound 1 and Thunderbird 1 used same method of guidance and had all the same limitations. However, lots of Meteors and a few Canberras taken out by Bloodhound 1 in the Acceptance Trials (with no warheads) between 1958-59 after the problems found in 1957 were fixed. I cannot think of one direct hit on any drone by a Thunderbird at Woomera (and I’ve been through the 8 JSTU ORB and Trials reports of the period).
Sandys at Defence,1958 imposed the Cardiff Mk.2 to give Bristol Aeroplane Co. something of value to parlay to assert merger with/not takeover by BAC.
Possible – However as soon as the RAF found out about Bloodhound 2 (A and B) they wanted it, as Bloodhound 2 had a much longer range than the Thunderbird 2. Also Bloodhound 2 was designed to home on the target from the point at which it had locked on to it after the boost phase. The increase in range coming from two innovations, firstly, a revised 16 inch ramjet with a cruise capability that had originally been designed as a test engine in the development of the 18 inch ramjet for Blue Envoy and secondly, a Climb / Cruise mode which allowed the missile to cruise at a high altitude, while only tracking the target in azimuth. The missile was then given a terminal homing command, which allowed the missile to complete the intercept. This gave a very large increase in range. Thunderbird 2’s range increase was mainly due to more powerful rocket motors and the missile being given a ballistic lob mode. The missile was fired no guidance commands given to the control surfaces for a set number of seconds (up to 26, if memory serves), after which the missile would home and intercept (if the target in the meantime had not manoeuvred to a position where the missile didn’t have enough energy to catch it, which happened on at least one trial that I’ve heard of). Thunderbird 2 range 50 miles max (including the coasting phase). Bloodhound 2 at this point would still have a good 25 miles of powered flight at least. Wise idea in the end by Mr Sandys (must be the only one from him that I can think off), The net result being, lots of Bloodhounds 2 exported, not that many Thunderbirds 2. Bloodhound 2A being the original Bristol term for the Command Guided version armed with the Nuke and more fuel, which was cancelled in 1960. The 2B version being the Continuous Wave SARH version that went into service as the Mark 2.
It was while he was at MoS, 1953, that airfield defence moved to RAF Regt.
Rubbish – RAF Regiment had an airfield air defence role since the late 1940’s with 40mm guns, Rockapes first Sam system was Tigercat, based on the Shorts Sea Cat, they never operated Bloodhound.
Red Shoes (Thunderbird) and Red Duster (Bloodhound) originally for defence of vulnerable areas, Major cities and seaports. The move to defend the deterrent bases being made by the Defence Council a couple of years after transfer of SAGW development to Air Ministry control. This happened after a review of airspace battle management in 1952 (again a Defence Council level review) The RAF Top brass were afraid of Army shooting long range ramjet powered SAGW into the middle of their air battle and shooting down RAF fighters. This and other reasons won the argument for the RAF. Nothing to do with Sandys, if he was at MoS. The RAF wanted Bloodhound as it was the weapon that had the design potential to be the type of SAGW they actually wanted (long range and a guidance system that Ferranti was already working from late 1951 onwards that would solve a lot of limitations that the Army specifications had put on both systems).Thunderbird however was kept in development for use as a mobile field system for the Army.
A bit late now, time for bed. I’ll finish this one off tomorrow. Flaming will continue tomorrow.
BIGVERN1966It was a ‘Shrike’ anti targetting radar missile that hung up despite numerous, and vigourous, attempts to get rid. There’s an account on http://www.thunder-and-lightnings.co.uk – several of the Shrike missions didn’t result in any target being destroyed but forced the Argentinians to swtich the radar off, therefore giving more freedom to the SHARs on bombing missions.
Not sure about the supersonic bit, but that would have been one hell of a sonic boom.
Vulcan never went supersoinc on that mission.
The Vulcan was XM597 on a Black Buck Op on 3rd June 1982 – Weapon load. 4 Shrike missiles. 2 with radar heads optimized against the TPS 43 radar (the primary target), and 2 with heads programmed for opportunity attacks against mobile Sky Guard/Super Oerlikon AAA installations protecting the environs of Port Stanley. The Vulcan was unable to engage the TPS 43 which the Argentines had left switched off, however launched the other two at a Skyguard, one of which successfully destroyed the radar and killed 4 radar operators. After breaking the probe on the return leg refuelling, the crew elected to climb to 43,000 ft for best endurance performance and headed towards Brazil. Before entering Brazilian airspace the Shrikes had to be fired (there being no ejection system), one missile misfired. After de- pressurising at 43,000 ft and jettisoning secret documents through the crew entrance door, the aircraft cruise descended to around 20,000 ft whilst evading a pair of Brazilian fighter aircraft which had been scrambled to intercept it. Very low fuel resulted in the Vulcan to the flying into overhead of Rio’s Galeao International Airport, where it commenced a spiral descent and visual approach. The aircraft was landed with only a few hundred pounds remaining in the tanks. Brazilian released the aircraft after a few days. But kept the missile. TPS 43 had been attacked a few days before by the same Vulcan and one of the Shrikes had exploded 10 meters away from the radar, slightly damaging it. The radar was taken as war booty and put into service with the RAF by 144 Signals Unit, TCW and 1 ACC as the Radar Type 99. I think it was scrapped in the late 1990’s on Cyprus. (I’ve seen the Vulcan and been inside the radar when TCW were operating it).
Just another point when the RAF went to Westinghouse for spares and the tech manuals for the TPS 43, Westinghouse turned round and asked, ‘Sure we will supply them, as long as you pay us for the radar , because the Argentines haven’t’.
XM597 now at East Fortune with two shrike mission markings and a Brazil flag on the side.
BIGVERN1966A London based property auctioneer will shortly be disposing of the control tower at Ludham ,near Norwich.
Planning permission has been granted to convert to holiday accommodation.
It would seem that this building has good prospects for ongoing survival especially when compared to its delapidated state a decade ago.Photo pre-restoration @Paul Francis.
Last RAF Squadrons based there were 1 and 91 Squadron’s with Spitfire XXI’s I do believe
BIGVERN1966The present owner is a member of the Wolverhampton Aviation Group and a really nice guy – I am sure he would entertain a reunion at some stage!
Thanks Dave, Any contact details? (Please PM if you have) Never got a photo of the kite at Weathersfield, Camera was U/S and in for repair, and the Yanks did not allow photography on the airfield anyway. (Got my ATC Gliding wings off the Base Commader, as I was on the first full week course done by the VGS after they moved from Debden).
Regards Richard
BIGVERN1966Cheers Dave 😡 😡 😡 😡 😡 😡 I’d have been up there like a shot otherwise 😡 😡 😡 😡 😡
BIGVERN1966One of the two Cadet’s (913 and 917) has gone to a collector in the West Midlands.
The civil Cadet is BGA972 and is a failed Motor Cadet conversion.
Cheers Dave, Any idea which one went to the midlands anybody?
BIGVERN1966Is this the one per chance??
Nope, Sorry Cliff, that a Barge. (SLINGSBY (T21) SEDBERGH TX1 to normal people, its WB969 according to the list on their web site) part of a Cadet in the top right of the second set of photos. The web site lists four Cadets, TX3 XN238 C, TX3 WT917 (unless repainted should be red, white and light aircraft grey with roundels, fin flash and Air Cadets on the side. If it is still in the marking of the unit I flew it with, there should be a black eyed vulture on the tail (markings of 614 VGS). two cadets are listed in store CADET TX3 BGA, 297 and CADET TX3 WT913 (most likey the ones in the photo).
BIGVERN1966Cliff, Please say you’ve got a photo of Slingsby Cadet TX3 WT917 (which is listed as being there)? Did my first solo in that aircraft in 1983.
BIGVERN1966To back up Big Vern, ” Hi, Bro!”, the majority of the pilots on BBMF are the Stanevals of the other types flown from Coningsby. The Hurricane pilot this year will be the Jag Staneval. In any war, he would be flying Jags!
Right on Bro,
Forgot to say Hi to the twin Brother, new to the forum.
BIGVERN1966Hi
looks like the first two numbers of serial are reversed, should be P6982 this was with 263 Sq first , then to 137Sq , SF-S, dec 41 to may 42, bases were Matlaske, detachments Snailwell & Drem.
cheers
Jerry
Cheers Jerry, correction already done
BIGVERN1966Hi,
Looks good, might give it a try one day, always wanted to try it out, to see what P6994 supposedly looked like, apparently it was repainted in late 42, in the USA, not being an expert on US navy colours, but it was ‘light grey’ lower, ‘blue grey’ top colour, with a wavy demarcation line between the two ( supposedly like some bomber command wellingtons but a lot lower down near to the raf demarcation line ) , RAF type ‘C’ fin flash , sky spinners and the US star, ( but only blue circle with white star ).
Of course this is purely from a mix of research from recollections / memories told to me and sadly no photos exist, or none that I have been able to find yet, so far only traced witnesses to it being in the US,( i.e. groundcrew / pilots ).
I haven’t been able to piece together wether it was repainted for the US air force, when they took it over in ’44.
P6994 was reported to be overall grey at one time, but not sure if it was this period (’44) , or when it was being repainted for the US Navy.
P.S. thanks for the replies.
Cheers
Jerry
Never knew the Yanks operated the Whirlwind. (One Thing you may be able to help me with here Jerry, was this aircraft at Coltishall or Matlask in 1941-42 with 137 Sqn. It’s one of the things I never got to check up on thanks to the suicide bombers).
BIGVERN1966HINTS ON DOING PROFILES
Wish I new more on doing profile and drawings on the computer, I would make the time to do some.
Must go I could go on forever otherwise…….
Cheers
Jerry
Hi Jerry
I do the original in CorelDraw as kind of patchwork quilt (I use weld, intersection and trim commands to turn a blank outline of the aircraft into the patchwork ensuring that one object does not overlap any others. (If they do, it causes problems after exporting (you get single pixle lines if you don’t that are a pain to clean up). All lines hidden (drawing must be less than 4800 pixels, (just below than A3 size)). Export it as a 24 bit windows bitmap (full size, correct colours, 24 bit, anti-alise OFF, no compression). I then use PhotoShop to Finnish it off (Items to note on this program are Layers, Paths (fill and stroke), Transparent setting, Brush sizes, Air Brush pressure (I use 10% for Panel lines and 3% for shading) and layer effects (embossed for panels at 135 Degrees, depth 3, blur 3). Use the magic wand to select the parts of the patch you want to work on, and different layers to do the Colours / shading. The Whirlwind here is made up of a number of layers Master Colour – Props and cockpit bits, dark grey, Sky bosses, Medium sea grey the rest. Next layer Cammo Ocean Grey. Next Layer Dark Green. Next Layer Markings. Next layer panel lines. Next Layer White Highlight. Next Layer Black Shade. Next layer wing and tail under shade. Next three layers Window colour (semi transparent) and highlight and shade. last with the correct layer effect Wires and Rigging (multi layers for bi-planes)
The start and the end result attached. All you need to be able to do now is be able to draw the thing in the first place.
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