p_shadow6x37mm/2,75″ rockets on PoAF Alouette III. System integrated in 1973 but not in time to be used in Africa. Not current on the choppers anymore, iirc.
Abraços
p_shadowMore important than how much owners the aircraft previously had are the upgrades those Fs went to and specially how much flying hours they have left. Don’t you agree?
third hand birds, but still requires first hand government approval (the US) which is why the deal hasn’t gone all the way through yet and Romania being where it is..
I believe Portuguese authorities started negotiations with the Romanians already with US consent.
Abraços!
p_shadow12 in storage, 14 active. If I remember correctly, there are 6 fully qualified pilots and they are each alotted 25 hours flying time for 2013. The situation is not ideal obviously.
If they need 14 aircraft so that 6 pilots can fly two hours per month (12 flight hours/month total), then their situation must be much worse than everyone thought! It may mean that their technical/logistical support is close to nothing!!
Abraços!
p_shadowIt’s interesting how low the RAAF’s accident rates are.
For example since being introduced in the md-1980’s, only 4 out of 75 F/A-18s have crashed (5% loss rate).
Compare that to say Spain who has lost 10 F/A-18s out of 96 deliverered (10% loss rate).
Or Italy who lost 2-3 F-16s in a very short period of time.
I think even the Canadians have a higher loss rate (e.g. 2 lost a couple of years ago).
You should divide losses by flying hours, not years in service nor quantity delivered…
p_shadowWhile i’m not exactly up to date with what standards of F-16 Portugal has
And that’s why i’ve been posting the same thing for the last months!! (no offense to you of course 😉 ). So, let me resume once again:
– Portugal received 17/3 F-16A/B-15OCU in 1994’s “Peace Atlantis I” deal. They were fresh new and all remaining 19 (one A crashed in 2002) have since been MLUed (the last one made its first MLU flight just weeks ago). These 19 MLU aircraft are NOT for sale. (serials 15101-15120)
– During “Peace Atlantis II” 21/4 F-16A/B-15 were purchased from AMARC stocks in 1999. From these, one is a travelling exhibit, another is on display at Monte Real’s AB gate and two others are used for spares. The remaining 21 (17 As and 4 Bs) are being upgraded, the last one should be flying before the summer. One BM crashed in 2008 during its first flight. (serials 15121-15141)
– When the upgrade programme reaches its end this summer Portugal should have 39 F-16MLUs (33 AM + 6 BM)
– In 2005 the Portuguese Government put up for sale 12 F-16MLU and even released the serial numbers of 10 of the aircraft involved. These are the only F-16s available for sale. Some (specially the two-seaters) have much more flying hours than others because they went out of the upgrade line much earlier too (and Bs usually fly more, also) but basically the single-seaters are not the most flown for sure. A quick review on some of the mentioned aircraft’s first flight after MLU dates:
– F-16BM 15139 (2004)
– F-16BM 15138 (2005)
– F-16BM 15137 (2006)
– F-16AM 15125/15126/15127/15128 (2007/2008)
– F-16AM 15129 (2009)
– F-16AM 15130 (2010)
– F-16AM 15131 (2013)
These aircraft are MLU-M5 and have excellent capabilities, have Falcon-UP and STAR and can fly a few more thousand hours but as they’ve been flying here in Portugal for some time i doubt they’ll fly 25 more years in Bulgaria or Romania even they were sold tomorrow. So, basically i share the Bulgarian General’s opinion about this sale possibility, but i don’t understand this part:
the Portuguese deal was the best option because it included everything necessary for the operation of the planes, while Gripen and Italy offered only the planes without arms and with only the most basic land equipment for their operation.
What arms was he talking about? I’m pretty sure we don’t even have enough for our needs much less to sell! Regarding equipment, i don’t believe we have excess of anything that may be of much use to them. Let us wait for more episodes of this story….
Abraços!
p_shadowWonder what the US would do if Iran sent drones 16 miles from US coast.
Nic
Because Iran was controlling and defending a most important international sea lane near US coast?
Abraço
p_shadowI can’t remember the exact numbers, but Portuguese most expensive Merlins (CSAR version) cost something around 30M€ each ten years ago.
By the way, FAP is paying 45M€ for the current 5-year maintenance contract provided by AW (9M€ a year to service 12 Merlins).
Abraços!
p_shadowAW-101 (counting around $45mil for transport, ca $50mil for SAR/VIP and $80mil for HM1/HM2 ASW)
Algeria (SAR) – ca $270mil
Canada (SAR) – ca $1.0bil
Denmark (TT) – ca $660mil
India (VIP) – ca $600mil
Italy (ASW) – ca $1.6bil for ASW + $600mil for SAR
Japan (SAR) – ca $850mil
Portugal – ca $540mil
Saudi Arabia – ca $100mil
Turkmenistan – ca $100mil
United Kingdom – ca $3.5bil for HM1/HM2 and ca $1.0bil for HC3Total – ca $16.2bil
I can’t remember the exact numbers, but Portuguese most expensive Merlins (CSAR version) cost something around 30M€ each ten years ago.
Abraços!
p_shadowSo are those 12 ex-USAF airframes for sale built in 1983? Good god that’s 29 years old. Is the radar on all your F-16s APG-66(V)2? Would you know how many of the 12 slated for sale are still under modernization? Thank you.
PS: Have absolutely nothing against your country, i just believe that’s a very bad, politically motivated, deal for RoAF , and very expensive for twelve 30 year old aircraft, what the hell are they paying 600 millions and possibly more for if allegedly each aircraft is costing 10 million.
I just commented and pointed on the Defense Industry Daily’s news and it’s lazy mistakes and added some more info, wasn’t talking about the deal itself specially the amount involved. This is a news thread.
Information is still scarce for a “complete picture” but here’s some more offiical info:
http://www.agerpres.ro/media/index.php/politic/item/149899-Dobritoiu-Avioanele-multirol-ne-costa-circa-120-de-milioane-euro-din-contractul-de-670-milioane-euro.html
PS: from memory i believe just four ex-USAF machines are still on the line for MLU and one or two of those are slated for sale.
Abraços
p_shadowMore on this from a reliable source:
It can’t be a “reliable source” if it publishes a lot of basic mistakes!!! Portuguese AF (FAP) doesn’t have OCUs flying anymore since more than a year now!
ALL F-16s from Peace Atlantis I and II programmes (ie, new-built F-16 OCUs and ex-USAF Block15s respectively) are being upgraded to MLU and the last six of these 40 aircraft will fly again by mid-13.
ALL our F-16s went through Falcon-UP and STAR. They’re coming out of upgrade with the latest MLU tape (M6) and FAP has AIM-9Li, AIM-120C-5, AGM-65G, GBU-12, GBU-31(V)1/B, GBU-31(V)3/B, GBU-49 and Litening AT in it’s inventory.
Some aircraft were put for sale more than 5 years ago (before the current crisis), the Defence Ministry even released the serial numbers of the aircraft to be sold: all come from the second, ex-USAF batch. Most of this 12 F-16s are flying for some years with only a few still in the process of modernization.
Abraços!
p_shadowPortugal is broke and has been for decades.. it would benefit them if they joined Brasil and become one of their states.
Portugal wants to cancel NH90 order, can’t afford it after losing bet on Ronaldo
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/portugal-looks-to-cancel-nh90-helicopter-order-374840/
I see passion here! oh oh…. someone’s in loooove! You are, aren’t you?eheh
Oh…. And i’m also astonished by your objective and assertive comments and remarks about Portugal. What a brilliant mind we have here, gents! Please keep on!! 😀
As Sintra very well said, we put 10 Fs for sale in 2005 iirc. At the time, and even now, this might have been seen as a bad decision in theory but in practice it doesn’t change a lot for what the reality has been. Operating a 40-a/c fleet would cost what the AF didn’t have in 2005 (or 2000!) not to talk about in a 2012 in crisis! Also, who needs planes when you don’t have pilots? It’s been hard to reach the actual numbers which is still less than the number of planes in both squadrons. I believe the strategic goal remains the same: assure air control in Portugal with 2 aircraft in QRA and have 12 Fs assigned to NATO’s IRF, iirc. So, 30 F-16s are just fine for that.
And the timing for selling these is now! When F-35 begins replacing Vipers across Europe (Netherlands, Norway, Turkey, and whoelse that may go in that direction) there will be a lot of 2ª hand fighters on the market for east european countries to buy (Slovenia, Slovakia, Croatia, Serbia, Bulgaria, Romania, etc etc etc).
Regarding Romania, buying these ex-FAP jets are the best way forward. And the sooner they buy it the better! These 10 F-16s can form an OCU before future purchases are made from other countries (all F-16 MLU are identical). When that happens (lets say in 2018/2020) the Romanians would already have some experience in operating a 4,5th-generation multi-role fighter. It could save some of the remaining hours of the LanceR fleet, making their use more efficient untill that timeframe. Don’t know if they have sufficient funds for that though.
Abraços!
p_shadowIndonesia to rely on upgraded F-16s and future K-FX figther with South Korea for its fighter needs
They have no plans on adding additional Su-27s or Su-30s and are happy with just 1 squadron of Sukhois and 24 upgraded F-16s till the KF-X arrives and they can equip with 3 squadrons of them.
The reports of the Indonesia AF’s size growing to 200 odd fighters with a large complement of Su-27s seems to have been either unsubstantiated or they’ve dropped those plans due to budgetary constraints.
Could the recent encounters with RAAF Hornets (and the Flanker’s performance against them) be a cause for such a huge shift in TNI-AU’s future force-structure goals?
Abraços
p_shadowPortugal also used for air policing, if I recall correctly. But this is not very demanding task, any plane could do that.
Unfortunately correct. We used them for the country’s air defence since the Sabres retired in 1980(!) right untill the vipers arrival in 1994. They weren’t purchased for that task but eventually had to carry it out. In their original missions they were HIGHLY praised and are still much missed today…:(
Who can forget those simulated treetop level mass-attacks done by 18/20 SLUFs and Ginas during the 80s and early 90s portuguese airshows??? 😮
Those were the days….
Abraços
p_shadowA few thoughts:
– UN needs (more!) proof of human rights violations in Syria, and some of those can’t be found by Mr.Annan and his group by travelling on “semi-touristic” routes arranged by Syrian officials! It’s not the first time human exodus is being checked by air reconnaissance (assuming it was a recce Phantom). So, would be naive to think there was no reason for that plane being there where it was at that time….
– Airspace violations between two countries occur very, very often by civilian aircraft (usually light a/c) and less often by mil a/c, but it happens a lot!
– It happens between NATO/NATO countries, NATO/non-NATO countries and non-NATO/non-NATO countries without major incidents other than a QRA jet puting the “violator” on track or forcing it to land. Why?? Because there are PROCEDURES for such situations that don’t necessarily include shooting something down right away!
– Turkey and Syria are not at war, weren’t even at the brink of a war, their relation surely had better times but it was not that bad either.
– It mustn’t have been the first time Turkish airplanes violated Syrian airspace (their president even aknowledged that for us!) and i have no indication of any attempt to shoot down those intruder’s before. Why now? Also, i haven’t learn of any real Syrian complaints about these incursions (like the Greeks use to complain, for example)
– I wonder how many times Syrian a/c have done the same on Turkish airspace, deliberatly or not… should the “shoot-first, ask later” policy be applied there as well? If so, Turkey and Greece would have no fighter jets by now, given the number of situations like this happening between them almost on a daily basis!
– Anyway, things won’t look very good for now on. If they are right with their claims they can evoke NATO’s chapter 5 and then there’ll be trouble (either by a military response from NATO or by the lack of it and consequential Turkish “weakening” in the organization). If not, they’ll be accused and seen as a “de-facto” destabilizing party in this problem.
Abraços
p_shadowThat Antonov belong(ed)s to TAGB (Transportes Aéreos da Guiné Bissau), it’s not military. Very nice pics though.;)
Abraços
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