LyffeI’m afraid it is not quite as simple as that Possel, would that it was. Weather systems rarely sweep across the continent as you describe. Those hitting the west coast are mostly destroyed when they hit the barrier of the Rockies and mountains further south. By the tume the remenants of these systems have crosed these they lack sufficient moisture to form coulds, let alone rain. Most of the rain-bearing weather systems form further east.
Added to which all such systems have a definite life cycle, from birth to decay, and raely do they move at a consistent rate for long.
What the USA does have, being a large continent, is a persistence of type, and for large areas this means a persistence of dry weather. Exactly the same argument applies to North Africa, eastern Europe, Russia and China. There might be changes in the weather patterns in these areas, but because the air is so dry there is no discernable change to the man in the street.
The UK, on the other hand, has a maritime climate – a moist one in which weather systems may be at the end of their life when they reach the land, or just in the process of birth; and the results are quite different.
The Met Office does produce forecasts out to 5 days, see http://expert.weatheronline.co.uk/daten/profi/en/ukmo/ukmo.html, and beyond that Germany produces charts out to 9 days, see http://www.wetterzentrale.de/pics/avnpanel1.html, but it’s one thing producing the basic patterns, it’s another putting the weather to them. In both cases these are just forecasts, and such is the difficulty over the east Atlantic and adjacent continent that the forecast pattens are in a continuous state of flux.
As you rightly say, in showery situations the difference between one location and one just 5 miles away may be considerable, something best demonstrated by radar displays (but not today) see http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/weather/uk/radar/index.html.
Brian
LyffeGentlemen,
You might find this website useful http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/weather/uk/radar/index.html
It’s the Met Office’s real-time radar imagery covering the last 6 hours. Images are at 30-minute intervals, and the sequence can be run as a loop or individual frames. There’s not much showing at the moment, but when there is you will appreciate why forecasting exactly where showers are going to occur is not a simple matter – even in the short term, let alone 5 to 9 days. The speed with which individual cells develop and decay is often very rapid, and they do not always organise themselves into trough lines that tend to last longer.
Brian
LyffeHate to say it Cees, but if you think LW170 is in the Irish Sea you’ll never find it. It was a 518 Squadron Halifax, and they never flew over the Irish Sea. It’s last position was 56.20N 11.20W, which places it in the Rockall Deep.
Brian
LyffeOne small point Russ, and I’m not trying to be pedantic, but since the accident occurred during a test flight the crew would have been considered to have been ‘Killed on active service’, not ‘Killed in action’. The distiction between the two can be found in the Times digital archive:
Times, 1 Feb 1943 (referring to RAF casualties):
‘Casualties “in action” are due to flying operations against the enemy; “on active service” includes ground casualties due to enemy action, non-operational flying casualties, fatal accidents, and natural deaths.’
There are many instances in which airecrew have died whilst flying operationally, the meteorological reconnaissance squadrons being good examples, but since they were not conducting an operation against the enemy their deaths are considered the same as someone dying from a heart attack.
Brian
LyffeJust to add a bit more to the photo, Clyne’s unit when the photo was taken was 1401 Met Flight. If the reference ‘C 1945-04’ means circa April 1945, then 1401 Met Flight was at Melsbroek to 14 April then at Eindhoven.
Brian
LyffeMy thanks Peter.
My particular interest would be in a civilian, Robert Beuttell, a civilan scientist engaged in meteorological research – including the development of instruments. He later became a Meteorological Air Observer early in 1943, and was lost on a met reconnaissance flight over the North Atlantic in Jan 1945 – not that your father would have known that.
Brian
LyffePeter,
I’d be interested to know if he ever flew with the High Altitude Flight at Boscombe. This was the forerunner of the Met Research Flight and, at the time, was investigating the formation of contrails (amongst other things).
Brian
LyffeThank you PN. I thought my original question was so simple it would be answered quickly; unfortunately I’m still in the dark. I suppose that provided an aircraft was within +/- 300 ft of its allotted height, it mattered not if the was based on QFE or QNH at take-off – provided all aircraft were using the same type of setting and flying in the same direction. Something tells me there were other things more important than H&S in those days.
As a matter of interest does Charnwood’s book make any reference to the Berlin raid on 24/25 Mar 1944? If so does he mention wind speeds?
Brian
LyffeSorry Ross – not with me it isn’t. Just waited ages for ‘Website not responding’.
Brian
LyffeI don’t know about Northern Ireland being a destination for eastbound ferry flights, I would have thought Prestwick was the main destination, but aircraft certainly did land there.
On 16th December 1943, Flt Lt Woosley of 1402 Meteorological Flight took off from Aldrgrove at 1128 GMT for the midday ascent. Entering cloud at 1000 feet he had climbed to 14000 feet when his psychrometer (instrument for measuring temperature) became unserviceable. Returning to Aldergrove he had the psychrometer replaced and took off again at 1246 GMT. This time he completed the ascent through thick cloud layers and found clear air at 23,600 feet – the top of the climb. He also found two Fortress bombers circling 3000 feet above him and clearly lost. Flt Lt Woosley and the Americans were unable to communicate with each other so, with one of the bombers formatting on the Gladiator, he escorted it down through cloud until it landed at Nutts Corner. He then repeated the process with the second bomber. The situation was not helped by the fact that the cloud base at Nutts Corner was less than 1000 feet and the visibility less than one mile.
It later transpired the two aircraft had been on an eastbound ferry flight before becoming lost after flying above cloud for many hours.
(Source: 1402 Met Flight ORB)
There are other tales of rings being found at crash sites.
On 9 December 1943 a B-17G (42-37744) taking off for a weather reconnaissance sortie from Bovingdon, crashed just beyond the airfield boundary with the loss of all on board, including Flt Lt John Leigh-Clare, a British Meteorological Air Observer. The crash was witnessed by a young 10 years old boy who, over the years kept returning to the spot.
Whilst visiting with his grandson in 1975, he found two gold rings. The name of the owner of one was clearly inscribed, and in 2003, 60 years after the accident, he traced the airman’s (the pilot) family and handed the ring into their safe-keeping.
Although the second ring is marked it has proved impossible to identify its owner, although at one time it was thought to belong to John Leigh-Clare. (The main source is an unpublished book written by the pilot’s family, but I was involved in that I made the contact with Leigh-Clare’s family.)
LyffeI regret I can’t help answer your question, but is there any chance the words ‘Meteorological’ or ‘Barothermograph’ appear on any of the FS publications? A barothermograph was a small instument fitted to an aircraft’s wing to record the variations in temperature during a flight. It was of RAF manufacture and was mostly used by Meteorological and Experimental Flights.
LyffeOne not yet mentioned, possibly because it was peculiar to the Meteorological Reconnaissance Squadrons (517, 518, 519, 520, 521 and 251), is ‘M’ for Meteorological Air Observer, or MAO. In addition to met observing these men were also trained as Air Gunners and Navigators, although the AG segment was dropped in the summer of 1943.
The initial strength of the MAO Section (1943) was 10 officers and 50 NCOs, and by May 1945 had increased to just 28 officers and 137 NCOs.
LyffeThis looks as though this is going to be one of the unanswered questions. The RAF Museum has replied to my request for help, but has been unable to provide a definitive answer.
My thanks to everyone for their help.
LyffeIn answer to your question about updating of winds PN I can offer the following.
Without going into the whys and wherefores wind forecasting at the beginning of the war was very hit and miss, not only because there was no information over enemy territory, but also because the Met Office had never previously been required to produce such information to high accuracy – the expertise did not exist.
In Feb 1943 a special branch was established at the Met Office HQ (not Bomber Command), tasked with forecasting winds on a more scientific basis. Although the crews would undoubtedly say otherwise there was an improvement in the forecasts, but forecasters were still hampered by a lack of information from Germany. Although the German meteorological code had been broken, it kept being changed which meant there were still periods when no data were available.
By the end of 1943 all crews conducted their flight planning using the forecast winds prepared by Met HQ, but about 20 of the aircraft at the front of a bomber stream were nominated as ‘wind finders’, measuring the winds over predetermined legs. These ‘found winds’ were transmitted back to Met HQ where they were compared with those forecast and, if differing greatly revised winds were broadcast to the bomber stream – thus those at the back of the stream were flying on more accurate data than those at the front – at least that was the theory. It didn’t always work (as on the Night of the Big Wind), but it certainly helped.
So yes, revised winds were issued.
Unfortunately it would not have benefited your Oboe aircraft as it was in front of the stream. In this case the Nav would have to compare his ‘found’ wind with the forecast issued and use his experience to adjust the track accordingly.
LyffeMy thanks Exmpa and Pontius Nav.
I never expected a simple answer to my query, as it was clear from the 16.12.48 ‘Flight’ article to which I referred in my opening post, that there did not appear to be any firm rules – perhaps this is why there were so many terrain collision accidents.
I’m still waiting for a response from Hendon, but I bet it’s not a question that has been asked before.
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