LyffeIn many ways this thread is essentially a continuation of the earlier threads about Dennis Copping and his aircraft, with claims and counter-claims of what should have been done, who did it, what mistakes were made – none of which brings anyone closer to the truth.
If you are seeking a human story, Robin, you might like to read the thread about Sgt Mikolajczak, a Polish pilot who crash-landed and survived about a day in the Nubian Desert before succumbing to heat and thirst (http://www.rafcommands.com/forum/showthread.php?19012-Sgt-Mikolajczak) . The similarities between the two stories are considerable, but that of Mikolajczak brings home the horror of the final moments of both men, something that is continually forgotten in the ‘academic’ arguments.
LyffeThank you, Denys; your photos remove any shadow of doubt, not that there was a great deal anyway. The construction is clearly vastly different. I’ve advised the archive from which ‘my’ photo came that it needs to rethink its caption.
Brian
LyffeThanks for the prompt replies, gentlemen. The geodesic appearance made me wonder, so thanks for the confirmation. From your advice I managed to find a an interior image online at http://www.626-squadron.co.uk/img80.gif.
LyffeApologies, I don’t know why I didn’t think of Flight in the first place – many thanks Mothminor. Unfortunately I don’t think it is either of these. I’ve now managed to extract a reasonable copy of the image to which I referred, and would appreciate the experts’ views.
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LyffeNibb100,
1. Your can obtain a copy of Form 1180 from the RAF Museum at Hendon. The F1180 is a very brief summary of an accident, but it may answer the question as to why Blenheim Z9737 was flying so low. To obtain the F1180 go to http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/research/research-enquiries/contact-collections-division.aspx and complete the form. Simply ask for the F1180 for Blenheim Z9737 which crashed on 12 October 1941. Takes about three weeks to get a reply.
2. Should you be interested you can obtain an abbreviated form of of your half-brother’s service record by completing the form at https://www.gov.uk/requests-for-personal-data-and-service-records#how-to-apply-for-service-personnel-records. Takes between 20 and 25 weeks for the document to arrive, and there’s a fee of £30 (unless it’s changed). You might need help in deciphering some of the shorthand, but we can provide that.
3. You can also download a copy of 21 Squadron’s Operations Record Book (essentially a diary) from the National Archives: go to http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/browse/r/h/C2502898?cUp=false&cK=D8409385&sK=C2502898, and scroll down the files on the right. The two for October 1941 are AIR 27/263/50 and AIR 27/263/51. There is a fee of £3.50 for each file. The quality of ORBs varies from squadron to squadron, some provide quite a bit of information, others not so much, but it is worth the effort.
Brian
Edit. Although he’s listed as ‘observer’ in #9, he would have been the navigator (all highly confusing I appreciate).
LyffeFurther to #9.
For those who haven’t seen it, The Times report was very brief.
[I]Two RAF men killed
From our correspondent, Lichfield.
People watching a Battle of Britain air display near here on Saturday saw a Mosquito crash and burst into flames. The pilot, Flt Lt S Hedley, 24, a test pilot who lived at Alrewas, near Burton on Trent, and Sqn Ldr W J Shore, 40, of London were killed.[/I]
This accident would have been at RAF Lichfield, and having lived in the locality for some years (a long time ago) I could not recall a hospital near the airfield as suggested by the first post. The one in Lichfield was/is not far from the city centre. I suppose the nearest ‘hospital’ would have been the Station Sick Quarters.
I’m tempted to suggest the versions of the story telling of 10 local people being killed have resulted from a confusion of two accidents involving Mosquitoes on the same day – the one at Manston with 12 fatalities and the one at Lichfield – both being reported in the same edition of The Times..
LyffePamela,
I suggest you access archived local newspapers for reports. The best way to proceed would be to phone Lichfield library (01543510700) and ask if it holds archived newspapers (the Lichfield Mercury comes to mind), but if it doesn’t I’m sure you will be advised as to which library holds them.
Edit. All libraries I’ve dealt with in such circumstances provide copies of reports – some free while others charge a small fee.
Brian
LyffeLeft click on his name at the heading (Dupre No1 Son) and use the drop-down menu for email contact.
LyffeYup, that’s what I was looking at, Moggy; I was really intending to point out one should be careful about making assumptions – but perhaps I should have included a reference to #19.
John,
Would aircrew have flown without parachutes clipped on irrespective of the height flown? I’m just thinking that if the Anson was flying at, say, 2000-3000 ft and got into difficulties it wouldn’t leave time for them all to pick their parachutes out of a bin, click them on and jump. Would the pilot, for instance, been required to use a chest harness?
Just asking.
LyffeDiane,
You are assuming one of the crew attempted to bail out, on the basis a body was seen near the wreckage wearing an unopened parachute. That does not necessarily mean he attempted to jump; since the aircraft was totally destroyed he could ‘simply’ have been thrown from the aircraft on impact – such things happened.
LyffeDiane,
Write to the Canadian archives requesting the service record for Flying Officer Donald Guthrie Tinkess, (RCAF), service number J/45437 service record as he was on your uncle’s aircraft. You should give his service number which was J/45437, and the date of the accident. (I obtained his service number from the Commonwealth War Graves Commission website at http://www.cwgc.org/ ).
It’s snail mail I’m afraid and the address is:
Personnel Records Unit,
Library and Archives Canada,
395 Wellington Street,
Ottawa,
ON K1A 0N3
There’s no fee, but quite a long wait. You will get all the information about Tinkess (99% will be of no interest) but it could include a report, or summary of the Board of Inquiry.
You could also request a Form 1180 for the aircraft from the RAF Museum at Hendon. An F1180 is a very brief summary of an accident and, sometimes, the possible cause. The F1180 is a handwritten document which may be difficult to read, especially if one is unaccustomed to RAF parlance. Go to http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/research/research-enquiries/contact-collections-division.aspx and fill in the form. All you need to do is ask for the F1180 for Anson MK890 which crashed on 13 Jan 1945. There’s usually a 3-4 week delay for an answer, but no fee.
Brian
LyffeIt’s not a roundabout route, Moggy, it is the best way to get things done. The link provides the form with all the necessary information required. Once completed it is sent to RAF 3rd Party Disclosure Team, Room 14, Trenchard Hall, RAF Cranwell, Sleaford, LINCS, NG34 8HB (notice the different address).
LyffeDiane,
Re #6, I think Moggy has given an old address. You do not need to write to Cranwell; details (and forms) as to how to obtain your uncle’s service record can be found at https://www.gov.uk/requests-for-personal-data-and-service-records#how-to-apply-for-service-personnel-records. There is a £30 fee (unless it’s changed) and a delay of between 20 and 25 weeks before you receive any documents. The service record will list all the stations/units with which he served, and although there are usually quite a few acronyms the documents include a decode of the most common. Should you need any help in understanding what you receive I’m we can help you trace his journey. Whatever, his service record will list the units with which he trained, and from that the locations can be identified.
Edit: Since one of the crew was a Canadian (Flying Officer Donald Guthrie Tinkess, aged 24, navigator, Royal Canadian Air Force of Ottawa) a copy of the Board of Inquiry into the accident may be with his documents in Canada. These are easily obtainable; I’m unsure of the procedure but someone here should be able to point you in the right direction. If not I’ll ask on the RAF Commands forum.
Brian
LyffeI apolgise for not reading all the 2000+ posts on this thread, but most that I have seem to be about the political aspects of recovering the aircraft – and who is right or wrong – few, if any, have considered what it must have been like for the pilot, assuming he survived.
Last July I started tracing the story of F/Sgt Mickolajczak who force-landed a Kittyhawk in the Nubian desert on 9 May 1942. He survived the landing but died the following day leaving letters and notes describing his last hours almost to the moment of death. These were by his side when the crash site was found 20 days later. #7 of the thread http://www.rafcommands.com/forum/showthread.php?19012-Sgt-Mikolajczak makes all that has been written here pale into insignificance.
Lyffe11 Group,
Found this link by using Google to search for ‘Hurricane P3053’ https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=MK6WBQAAQBAJ&pg=PT158&lpg=PT158&dq=Hurricane+P3053&source=bl&ots=4dWcT6j-Tt&sig=pj_HB_il0ZAUDlG3EQxhkYBr6nE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAmoVChMIlLD7w7TqxgIVSEAUCh1f5gUD#v=onepage&q=Hurricane%20P3053&f=false.
Sgt H E Black died 9 November in Ashford Hospital from burns and serious wounds. His aircraft came down at Hothfield Park, near Ashford. The Bf109s that shot him down are not identified.
Brian
Edit. If no-one can identify his attackers I suggest you try the 12 O’Clock High forum at http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/index.php
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