LyffeAndy,
I’m intrigued by the reference to CB as there appears to have been a quite substantial ridge building from mid-Atlantic across the UK (ridge line roughly Shannon to NE England). On the basis of admittedly very limited met data, it wasn’t the sort of situation I’d have expected to see deep convection, let alone a CB sufficiently vigorous to cause a large aircraft to break-up in flight. Do you have any other details?
There was a brief report of the accident in The Times, but no mention of the weather, simply that it was inbound from the North Sea.
Just curious, that’s all.
Brian
LyffeSamuel Lightfoot of 977 Squadron, remembered on the Malta Memorial. Age 22; died 26 Jan 1944. (CWGC). 977 Squadron operated barrage balloons in the Mediterranean theatre. The Times has him listed as being Killed on Active service.
Beaten to it!
Lyffeptg,
To find where he was ‘in the north of England’ I suggest you ask the gentleman concerned to obtain his service record. That will list all the units in which he served, and since you have a time frame it should be easy to identify the airfield. As he is still living you will not be able to obtain the information yourself.
Details as to how to proceed are at https://www.gov.uk/requests-for-personal-data-and-service-records#how-to-apply-for-service-personnel-records
LyffeI’ve been away for a few days, so my belated thanks for all the useful input.
During the interim I’ve discovered a little more from AP1134 The Second World War 1939-1945: Meteorology, a 1954 AHB publication.
The establishment of 1401 Met Flight was increased by two ‘F’ type Spitfires (I’m quoting) during August 1941, for deep penetration over enemy territory. The sorties were to be flown at around 30000 ft, over a total distance of no more than 1000 miles.
The increased establishment was apparently a paper one since, as I noted earlier, this first PAMPA sortie was not flown until 7 November 1941.
Because the aircraft failed to return, the flights were discontinued until a larger establishment and experienced personnel could be provided.
Wish I’d found this before asking the question, but I think it confirms your calculations, Sycamore.
Perhaps I’m reading too much into it, but the reference to experienced personnel, could be taken to imply the pilot lacked sufficient experience in navigation for such a long sortie, and departed from the planned track. At least that would explain why he ended up at Beachy Head.
I’ve l looked at the 521 Sqn ORB from the date it formed from 1401 Met Flight (1 August 1942) until October 1942. It was using Mk VD Spitfires for PAMPAs at the time, the last Spitfire PAMPA being flown by R6905 on 10 Sept. During that period most sorties were less than 3 hours, four were over 3 hours and one lasted 4 hours and 5 minutes.
Edgar
The idea that the jetstream was a new met phenomena raises its head from time to time. There are various claims as to who invented the term, and when; but ‘jetstream’ really came into popular usage after WW2, to describe a ribbon of fast-moving air at high level. The phenomena had actually been identified as early as the 1870s by meteorologists tracking elements of cirrus cloud (circa 30000 ft), so it was nothing new.
Today winds are considered to reach ‘jet’ strength when they exceed 75 mph (or it was in my day), but obviously they can reach very much greater values.
Consequently, in the case of P9550, the forecast wind of 290/80 mph was, technically a ‘jet’.
LyffeSycamore
I don’t know exactly what Mk it was (I’m obviously not an aviator) but the aircraft’s history is at http://www.spitfires.ukf.net/p009.htm (P9550). The departure airfield was Bircham Newton.
The Spitfire was with 1401 Met Flight, and this sortie was flown at around 30000 ft; forecast wind was mostly 290/80 mph.
This was actually the first PAMPA sortie attempted (so far as I’ve be able to ascertain the acronym is simply a name). That said, PAMPA sorties were mostly high-level, deep reconnaissance to ascertain cloud conditions immediately prior to a Bomber Command operation. It was not until later, when Mosquitoes were being used, that a descent was sometimes made to ascertain conditions at lower level. So far as I’m aware none of the aircraft were armed.
Both
Thank you for the distance, I’d assumed it was a little less (circa 900 miles), but was using a higher speed to estimate the time the sortie should have taken – not surprisingly my estimate was less than the planned time by quite a margin.
That’s when I realised I needed to ask the experts!
My initial thought was that the pilot had overflown Hawkinge, but there was hardly any cloud along the south coast at the time, so that’s unlikely. My thinking now is that he was south of track and was attempting a N or NW leg to reach safety. I don’t have the conditions over France, but the cloud should have been well broken.
Finally, my thanks to you both.
LyffeMoggy,
ATD Bircham Newton 1132 (I assume local time); the terminal airfield was Hawkinge, ETD 1515. The aircraft was seen to crash at 1530 between Eastbourne and Beachy Head.
Graham,
Many thanks. The history of this Spitfire (P9550) is given at http://www.spitfires.ukf.net/p009.htm
I’m thinking it might have been fuelled for a 3 hour 45 minute flight with 15 minutes additional fuel, but the tanks ran dry. I’ve not found any records of an interception by German aircraft.
LyffeThank you Moggy. This was actually a PAMPA sortie to ascertain cloud conditions for three targets, Berlin, Mannheim and Cologne, but obviously the flight would not have actually ‘visited’ them. The only en route point I know of is Magdeburg – which I guess would have taken less than 3 hours for a simple out and return.
I understand aircraft used for this and PR operations, were stripped of all unnecessary weight (munitions and radio) and I’m assuming fuel was restricted as well to reduce weight and improve speed. I suppose what I’m really after is the profile of an operation.
Edit. I did mean ‘4 hours’. I have the planned flight time and know the actual duration, as the Spitfire was seen to crash just off-shore after almost exactly 4 hours in the air.
LyffeAndy
The aircraft that collided with the radar pylon at Stoke Holy Cross, just after 3 pm on 18 June 1942, was Blenheim Z7304.
The aircraft was on the strength of 18 Squadron based at Wattisham and had been on an air test. The test should have taken place in the vicinity of the airfield, but the pilot elected to fly to the coast, where he ran into low cloud and poor visibility. Flying west to find clearer conditions, the aircraft hit the Stoke Holy Cross pylon just 10 ft from its top.
The crew were:
P/O P H Lowther (pilot)
Sgt G B Crawford (WOp/AG)
Sgt K C Ellis (navigator)
There was also an unofficial passenger, Ken Tagg, an 18 years-old meteorological assistant who had only been at Wattisham a few days.
The crew and passenger are remembered by a memorial plaque that was placed on the old base of the pylon on 18 July 1992. (Actually I think it might have been moved in recent years.)
Brian
LyffeDid you try Farnborough Air Sciences Trust?
LyffeVery much obliged, bravo 24, thank you.
Brian
LyffeYup, I’m aware Amazon has copies, but over £30 for the single page in which I’m interested is a bit pricey – hence my request for help.
LyffeWould anyone have a copy of Chris Pocock’s 50 YEARS OF THE U-2, which was published in 2005? I’ve tried to obtain the book through my library (using the Inter-Library Loan service) but no British library appears to hold a copy. The service also tried the Netherlands, but again without success.
All I’m after is a scan of page 286.
TIA
Brian
LyffeHMT Lanastria
There is an excellent file in the NA covering the RAF experience with this disaster – AIR35/190 S.S. “LANCASTRIA” : Lists of R.A.F. casualties and survivors with related correspondence, and other nominal lists of R.A.F. personnel.
The file incudes a four-page report by Wing Commander D Macfadyn – Return journey from Nantes to the United Kingdom. In summary he was in charge of a group of RAF personnel – 9 officers and about 210 ORs – and ordered to proceed from Nantes to St Nazaire on 15 June 1940. He describes in graphic detail the confusion and almost total lack of organisation at the port, the arguments he had with Army, RAF and Navy personnel; boarding the Lancastria on the 17th and three attacks by bombers during the afternoon.
He was bitterly angry about the whole fiasco and pulled no punches in speaking his mind. The only good words he had to say were for the Captain and crew of HMT Oronsay who looked after many of the Lancastria’s survivors. The file contains many lists of RAF personnel who were on the vessel and of the casualties.
Should anyone wish for a copy of Macfadyn’s report please pm me.
LyffeLeif,
On 6 December 1935 there was a brief reference to this flight in The Times newspaper. The report describes Appleby taking off from Lympne at 1255, and landing at St Inglevert at 1.30. The next sentence reads:
He was accompanied by four other aeroplanes.
The last sentence reads:
Mr Appleby returned later to Penshurst aerodrome, Kent, in one of the aeroplanes which had accompanied him.
I suggest that what actually happened was that his fiancé was in one of the accompanying aircraft, then later accompanied him on the return flight.
Neither Flight nor Wiki make any reference to the accompanying aircraft or of the return.
LyffeWP,
There’s nothing in The Times, but have you tried the Kent Library Service to ask if archived local newspapers carry a report of the incident.
I’ve found libraries very generous with this sort of enquiry, although there’s sometimes a small copying fee.
Try [email]libraries@kent.gov.uk[/email]
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