From which source you get this news that there was no funding before early 90s.?. And try to compare UNIT PRICE of LCA with F-16, Gripen, M2K not the whole system price. You have not even consider real weopon load. Your post is quite illogical.

Flight International

June 13, 1990

HEADLINE: India’s homegrown fighter takes shape

BODY:
India’s indigenous design capability now extends to fixed-wing fighter aircraft. The Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) project was launched in 1983 and hopes for a first prototype flight by 1992. The aim is to produce a state-of-the-art single-engined, multirole, all-weather fighter.

So far Rs2.73 billion (Dollars 160 million) has been spent on the project, which is drawing on expertise from a wide range of research institutes within the country. Although Dassault has provided consultancy, the bulk of the design work is being carried out by more than 600 Indian engineers and scientists. The effort is co-ordinated by India’s Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) which has formed its team largely from specialists at Hindustan Aeronautics, the National Aeronautical Laboratory, and the country’s Defence Research and Development Organisation.

Following the critical-review stage, a compound-delta planform was chosen for the wing. ADA freely admits that many of Dassault’s software tools were used in the design process, together with access to the French company’s knowledge base. Involvement by the USA has been limited to flight control systems, composites and avionics simulation, for key systems such as the radar, the ADA is carrying out a joint definition effort with Ericsson of Sweden.

Although the LCA prototypes are to be powered by the General Electric F404/RM12 engine, India hopes to replace it with the GTX-35VS engine which is being designed by the country’s Gas Turbine Research Establishment. It is designed for a maximum dry thrust of 51kN (11,250lb), rising to 80kN with afterburner.

India’s Minister of State for Defence has recently indicated that engine development is giving some problems. ADA denies that the engine project will be scrapped, however. As a fall-back, the F404 could always be built under licence in India.

The LCA programme director, Dr Kota Harinarayana, says that ‘ . . . most of the equipment development decisions have now been taken. In avionics, for instance, we will develop our own identification friend or foe, but we may buy in displays’. The LCA cockpit will have one headup and two head-down multifunction displays. ADA is understood to be negotiating for these displays with GEC-Ferranti, Honeywell, Smiths Industries and Thomson-CSF.

The above article still ties in with Srbin points and yours as well. You have to understand the context- that is , if you are inclined to do so and dont merely look upon this as another “lets poke fun at xyz”.

The above money was mainly used for infrastructure- namely the ADA facilities and signing technical consultancy deals with various firms for the LCA programme to ramp up infrastructure. A portion of the funds were used for initial design work.

But the money for ACTUAL subsystem development WAS simply NOT there.

That was because the Indian economy was down the tubes. And R&D was put on the backburner.

Also as far as comparisons go – the present per unit price for the 40 LCA’s anticipated by HAL, including tooling costs and manufacturing facilities etc- are at 22 million $.

The bulk production will benefit from the above and they anticipate that prices may drop.

Secondly the article above is incorrect. The US did not help out with composites. Nor did we source extensive software from Dassault- we often made our own. One result was AUTOLAY, which ADA sold to Airbus Industrie recently for a few million bucks. Airbus acknowledged that the product was unique and was critical for building composite structures.

The other tools developed- PRANA, GITA etc.

We did use COTS s/w for design work- more on that later.

With a lot of projects being announced as state of the art and with tremendous foreign input they all seemed to end the same. Crediting the one that is not achieving its goals may be noble but unwise. The Indian project that is fully homegrown need to be born yet. It is even debatable if any nation will be able to succeed in all fields to finish top end fighter. The project that is ended as success and achieved even export is something not even discussed. If the twin tailed F5 is fun then why is a plane that looks (but not is) a lot like a mini mirage and started decades ago something we should honour? Just an open view. Nothing anti. I admire the achievements anyway.

Tsk tsk PLA and the subtle propoganda – all lumped together with the std disclaimer- I admire them “anyway”.

As regards- “tremenodus foreign input”- I’d like to see what the tremendous foreign input is.

Homegrown projects- from start to finish- do look at the IJT and the HPT32 replacement.

Or even the SARAS. The only major foreign component are the powerplants.

The LCA has benefited from technology codevelopment and foreign test infrastructure- NO technology transfer. The Indian Comptroller and Auditor General – like the US GAO clearly mentions that most technology consultations were taken to build INFRASTRUCTURE and were terminated once that purpose was achieved.

We HOLD PATENTS for technology codeveloped with anyone else. Its IPR is Indian.

There is NOTHING in common with the Mirage and the LCA apart from some generalization about both a/c being Deltas.

The only relation is that ADA worked with Marcel dassault to set up a Infrastructure path for India to follow.

In the meanwhile- the avionics and aerospace industry in India triggered by the LCA will roll on.

We are already capable of making state of the art avionics and structures. And in a few years time we’ll make up elsewhere as well.

Oh here are some more pedantic details.

Technologies developed and Spin offs

The LCA project has resulted in the indigenous development of a vast number of technologies. There are major advances in all the major ADA sectors. The advances are briefly presented in a table below [48,51,52,54,55,62,63,66]:

Area of R&D
Outline of advances made in the field

Aerodynamics and Flight Mechanics
CFD codes, various aspects of wind tunnel testing, development of Control Law, and control law simulation and testing facility, use of supercomputer to attack various aerodynamics issues, Finite Element Method codes, Aero Elasticity Studies.

Airframe including Carbon Fiber Composite {CFC) Wing and Fin
Precision machining of special metals like Titanium (challenging), Aluminum, Composites manufacture and machining, Carbon Disc brakes.

Propulsion System
Engine Design work at GTRE, design and manufacture of very high reliability sub-components like fan-blades, casings etc, for the Kaveri, JFS, Hydro-mechanical parts, Engine Control Unit, Nozzle Control Unit [51].

Mechanical General Systems and Manufacturing.
Landing gear, Brake Systems, AMAGB, Brake Parachutes , CAD-CAM software, Environmental Control Systems, Application software for Distributed Numerical Control, software to improve control over CNC instruments.

Flight Control System
Control Software, Iron Bird testing facility, Mini Bird, Cockpit Controls, Actuators and other components of Digital Flight Control System and computer [52].

Avionics and Electrical Systems
Design of Full Authority Digital Engine Control (FADEC), LCD, Antennae, Testing facilities like DAIR, Communication Equipment, Control and Coding Unit, IFF, Various cockpit systems and simulators, Mission Computer, Lightning test facility, Multi-Mode Radar.

Quality Assurance and System Effectiveness
Several quality assurance programs like Failure Mode Effect and Criticality analysis, Fault Tree Analysis, `Walk through check lists’ etc… were implemented [53]. Software like C-SCAN was developed to deal with QC issues in composites [54], Software Test Plan based on DOD standard.

Ground and Flight Testing
Flight test facility and equipment, testing during ground run, fast and slow speed tests,

The detailed list of technologies developed and their applications may be found in the Appendix I.

Private Sector Participation

The LCA project has managed to secure considerable amounts of participation from the private sector. This participation falls into three broad areas; manufacturing of pre-designed components (moulds, tools, jigs, etc…)[56] and special purpose tools [57], software development [58] and advanced machining products (aerospace grade Line Replaceable Units (LRU))[59].

Some of these companies existed before the LCA project but a fair number are new. Almost all of these companies have had to expand their capabilities and take on serious financial liabilities because of the LCA project. A large number (approximately 300) of small and medium-scale units are involved in mechanical production. These units are heavily invested in the LCA project as it stands today and will suffer enormous hardships if the project is summarily cancelled. Many of these companies are in a position to exploit spin-off technologies and will at the very least be able to assert a presence in the aerospace market.

The software companies have been able to combine their participation in the LCA to enter into very high-end markets like embedded systems, ultra-stable code development, and computational fluid dynamics calculations. Some software companies have used their LCA experience to build up manpower and then moved into more lucrative businesses like e-commerce. This has added to growing presence of Indian companies in the world software market.

Small and Medium-scale manufacturing units have been able to upgrade manufacturing setups so as to meet the requirements imposed by certifying bodies such as DGAQA and CEMILAC. This has spawned ancillary industry as some of these companies outsource their initial requirements and focus on meeting aerospace tolerances and quality guidelines. This has provided employment for highly skilled craftsmen. We present a list of private companies involved in the LCA project in Appendix II.

Limitations

It has to be noted that this article draws data from various public sources of information. It represents an open literature analysis of what is known thus far about the LCA program and its comparators. While the real costs of development, ownership and operating such platforms are very important in economic analysis, it must be noted that such data is very difficult to come by. Additionally, it was observed that the utility of the various platforms could only be gauged with time. Hence it is provides an inkling about the benchmarks that the LCA needs to meet in order to prove its effectiveness over its life cycle.

Conclusions

The LCA project represents a considerable investment in advanced infrastructure relating to the crucial aviation industry. Subsequent to the flight of the TD-1, at least some of the R&D effort supported by this investment has met with visible success. A large portion of the investment so far has gone into development of a base of research and academic institutions vital to foster a sustained presence in this in this field.

At the present time it is possible to estimate the unit cost of the LCA and the measures of effectiveness for evaluating multi-role aircraft. However the absence of a production version of the LCA precludes the possibility of a computation of cost-effectiveness quotients. Critics of the project must accept the fact that our specific requirements on cost and performance are not met by platforms currently available on the market and that superficial comparisons of effectiveness of the LCA with other `international standards’ are utterly meaningless at the present time. These factors increase the need to encourage and sustain the development of platforms specifically designed to perform in the Indian context. In the LCA project Indian R&D institutions and manufacturers have once more demonstrated their ability to overcome the initial lack of a technological base. This feat merits the highest commendation.

It is also important to take note of the growth fostered in certain industrial sectors. This is a very positive in economic terms as it moves us one step closer to improving the competitiveness of our industry and moreover reduces the impact of defense purchases on foreign exchange reserves. If the manufacturers are indeed able to exploit spin-offs and affect a stronger showing in the aviation market, then we could see real long-term prosperity in certain parts of India. The authors also recommend that stronger measures be taken at the earliest possible to transfer more technology to industry and specific economic incentives be offered to private sector companies to participate in the LCA project. Even if the LCA does exceed the present estimated unit cost, the funds will end up being dispersed within the country and will boost local industry.

At this stage in the project several critical subsystems are poised to reach completion. This is a reason to continue funding the project. If a decision is made to curtail project funding now, a fair bit of the progress to date will be lost as talented manpower will leave the company and several private companies involved in the project will suffer enormous losses [4].

Given the complexity of the LCA platform and the fact that this is a first attempt, it is also likely that there may be a few setbacks in the months to come. This is quite common with such projects. The authors feel that these setbacks should be faced with courage and every effort to realize the full potential of the LCA must be strongly supported.

[quote]Appendix I: Technologies developed and Spin offs

Next we briefly profile the technologies developed for this project, the agency, and the possible spin-offs (we apologize for any that we may have missed).

AGENCY
IMMEDIATE APPLICATION TO PROJECT
SPIN-OFFS AND/OR MARKET POTENTIAL

ADA: Aeronautical Development Agency: Computer Aided Design [62]
Autolay Software: used to design LCA.
ADA had tied up with Computervision, the largest CAD/CAM company in the world, for marketing Autolay, following which the Airbus Industrie had evinced a keen interest in the product

ADA: Aircraft Systems Maintenance Simulator [63]

Designed in collaboration with IIT Bombay and Tata Consulting.
Simulator for LCA maintenance.
A Maintenance simulator was designed for Mig 29 a/c. This was used to train IAF and Royal Malaysian AF personnel in India.

ADA: Flow Simulation
The CFD group uses a suite of CFD software developed in Indian institutions under projects
sponsored by ADA or developed in-house. Present capability is a simulation of transonic
flight of LCA with stores.
CFD has very broad applications. The transonic field integral method can be used for highly complicated geometry with moderate computing resources.

ADA [64]: GITA
Graphical Interactive Three dimensional Analysis software, LCA Design.
Technology Associates Inc of US and Boeing use it for CADCAM application

ADA [65]: Prana
Virtual Reality software for CAD applications. A prototype can now be readied through virtual reality in nearly half the time it takes for a physical prototype. VR technology would be used for the first time in the Indian aircraft industry for the LCA.
This software can be used in the automobile, shipbuilding and aero industries. ADA is on the lookout for a marketing tie-up. Many DRDO labs and corporate groups such as TVS and Mahindra and Mahindra have already expressed interest in it.

ADA
Design of LRU for Hydraulic, Fuel and Environmental Control Systems. Actual Manufacture is outsourced. C-SPAN implementation for detecting flaws in Composites with cooperation of CAIR and VIVASONICS.
The local manufacturers have been able to build up confidence in producing aviation grade components

ADE: Aeronautical Development Establishment (DRDO)[62]
Engineering Test Station for integration of hardware and software of DFCS

ADE (DRDO) [62]
Dynamic Avionics Integration Rig: to test LCA avionics

ADE (DRDO) [62]
Indigenous Real Time Simulator for testing LCA Control Law (CLAW)

ADE (DRDO) [63]
Bread board model of Display Processor

ADRDE (DRDO) [66]
Brake Parachute and Spin Parachute. Tested at IISC and Terminal Ballistic Research Lab (TBRL)
Parachute imports for some platforms are of a low quality, this could find application there.

ASEIO (DRDO)
EW equipment, Mission Computer, Standby UHF link.

ARDE (DRDO) [67]
Ejection system for LCA, this includes a combination of ejection seat and canopy release system.
This product has been tested and certified by the Martin Baker Corp. of UK. This system can be re-used on any subsequent platform.

BARC: Bhabha Atomic Research Center: Computer Division[68]
ANUPAM-860/16 Node parallel processor, used for CFD work related to LCA engine intakes
Other versions of ANUPAM/16 Node (ex. ANUPAM-Pentium/16) are under development. This is a significant contribution to evolving field of Parallel Processing applications.

BEL Bangalore
LCDs, Populated PCBs of the Flight Control Computer. This unit played a crucial role in overcoming the setbacks of the sanctions.

BHPV Bharat Heavy Plates & Vessels Ltd. Vizag:
Heat Exchanger for environmental unit.

BHEL Bharat Heavy Electricals Ltd. Corporate R&D,
Pump Motor for Radar Cooling

BHEL Bharat Heavy Electricals Ltd, MHD Centre Trichy
ECS test facility

BHEL Bharat Heavy Electricals Ltd. Ramachandrapuram, Hyderabad
Brake Dynamometer

CAIR: Center for Artificial Intelligence and Robotics: Control Systems Group [69]
Part of National Flight Control Law Team, work relates to control systems

CAIR: Robotics Group [69]
Gantry robot and supplied it to Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) for LCA wing inspection

CDAC
LCA simulators

Central Electro Chemical Research Institute, Karaikudi
Development of Cd. plating for maraging steel (Grade-250)

Central Institute of Tool Design, Hyderabad
Tooling and machining of precision parts

COMPROC: Composite Production Center (DRDO)
Composites for LCA
Composites for other defense applications.

CSIO(CSIR)
Heads Up Display for LCA

CMTI bangalore.
Manufacturing of LCA parts and machinery. Testing of Filter Elements and Development of Filter test rigs

CVRDE: Central Vehicle Research and Development Establishment (DRDO) [62]
AMAGB: Aircraft Mounted Accessories Gear Box

CVRDE: [62]
Hydraulic Filters designed by ADA.

DEBEL (DRDO):
Pilot’s personal systems, onboard oxygen generating system (OBOGS).

DRDL (DRDO):
Radome for MMR, Carbon Brake discs for LCA, Control and Coding Unit (CCU). The MMR Radome required indigenous production of Kevlar Socks and Low loss polyester resin.

DEAL (DRDO)
Communication Radio and Data link.

DMRL (DRDO):
Rotor and starter casting for Jet Fuel Starter, Heat exchangers for environmental unit.

DLRL (DRDO)
EW equipment

DSIC
Digital Engine Control Unit
Used with GEF404 now, but will eventually end up being used with GTX-35VS.

ER&DC
LCA simulators

ERDL
Canopy Severance System [70]

ECIL Hyderbad
Materials for LCA

Government Tool Room & Training Centre, Bangalore & Mysore
Machining & Assembly of Precision Valves

GTRE Bangalore:
Kaveri engine (GTX-35VS) and testing of sub-systems like ECS, FADEC etc…
This technology will spawn other engine designs.

HAL: Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (Hyderabad)
Integrated Communication Equipment (INCOM), MMR, Electronic Controllers, IFF Transponder, Audio Management Unit, Radio Altimeter, Utility Management System
Various items can be installed on other platforms.

HAL Lucknow Division (LD)

Wheels and Brakes, Hydraulics LRUs, Environmental LRUs, Fuel Gauging Probes, U/C Actuator Jacks, FADEC & KADECS Hydromechanical units for engine control, Engine Nozzle Control system, Electronic Control of ECS and Fuel Monitoring, Airbrake Actuator, Utility Management System, Electrical LRUs AC Master Box, DC Master Box, Static Inverter and Rectifying Unit, Ground Power Protection Unit, Design of LRU for Cold Air Unit, Accumulators, operating jacks.

HAL-Korwa:
Crash Data recorder

HAL-Engine Design Bureau:
Jet Fuel Starter for the LCA. This device is crucial to deciding the environments where the LCA is deployed. It has been tested at high altitudes to ensure operation in places like Leh AFB.

HAL-Nasik (this is Mig 21 building factory)
Standard Parts

HAL-Aircraft Design Bureau (ADB)
Microprocessor controlled Brake Management System, Canopy and bubble.
HAL-ADB has produced this for other aircraft like the Airbus A300.

HAL-ADB
1200 L Drop Tank for LCA, these were tested for resistance to small arms at TBRL

HAL-ADB
Dynamometer Test Rig for testing the Brake Management System
This can be used to test BMS for other platforms as well

HERL (DRDO)
Miniature Detonation cord for LCA canopy ejection.

Hindustan Springs, Mysore Springs
Hydraulic & Fuel System LRUs

HMT, Bangalore
Nose Box assembly jig.

HVF Avadi,
Manufacturing of LCA parts and machinery.

IICT Indian Institute of Chemical Technology
Development of Low Loss Polyester resin for MMR matrix material.

IISc Indian Institute of Science
Lightning Test Facility, Explosive Atmosphere Testing, and consultancy on a host of other projects.

IIT: Indian Institutes of technology
Involved in consultancy in several project relating to software development, aerodynamics design etc…

IPCL Baroda
Materials for LCA manufacture.

Kerala High Tech
Radar Cooling system, Valves for OBOGS (Check Valves, Solenoid Valves and Temperature Control Valves)

LEOS(ISRO) Lab for Electro Optic System
Tri-axial miniature Magnetometer

LRDE: Electronics Research and Development Establishment (DRDO) [62]
Avionics for LCA. Video Switching Unit (VSU), Centralized Warning Panel (CWP), and Ground Checkout System (GCS) [71].
These are systems used in almost all modern day a/c. The GCS offers an extremely convenient way of evaluating the DFCS and other LRUs from a mobile trolley.

LRDE (DRDO)
Antenna and processor for MMR

MIDHANI Hyderabad
Materials for LCA (ferrous and non ferrous alloys).

MTRDC(DRDO)
TWT for MMR

NAL: National Aeronautics Laboratory: Systems Analysis Group: Dr. A. Pedar [69].
Ada software used to design LCA, efforts have focused on identifying the most reliable software subset.
Software can be used on other design codes as well once reliability is known.

NAL: Composites Materials Division, part of CFC National Team [62].
Composites and technology of co-bonded and co-cured construction for LCA wing, and rudder/fin.
Applications to other a/c also exist ex. SARAS under development at NAL is a full a/c made fully of CFC.

NAL: Flow Simulation (Dr Anand Kumar) [72]
Software developed to examine vortex formation at tip of delta wing. A fair amount of simulation has taken place on the NAL FLOSOLVER and the SUPERSOLVER (collaboration with Tata-Elxsi); indigenous parallel computers built in Bangalore with available components. This machine has evolved in the project started in 1986 on the
development of indigenous parallel high performance computer
This work has found application in a study on modeling and simulation of aircraft wake carried out by NAL under a project awarded by the Civil Aviation Authority of UK on the basis of a global tender. The software developed at NAL is designed to enhance the capacity of busy civilian airports by simulating realistically the wake vortices of the leading aircraft; which could have adverse effect on the following aircraft.

NAL & BHEL(Tiruchi)

NALTECH (Commercial Promotions of NAL technology) [73]
Largest computer controlled Autoclave facility measuring 4 m diameter x 8 m length, and costing around Rs. 7 Crores has been custom built for the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), to cure composites.
Applications exist for other CFC bonding and manufacturing areas. NALTECH perceives applications in other areas of autoclave technology.

NAL [64]
Parallel Processing codes developed for various applications in LCA design
Molecular Dynamics code was parallelized and sold to Hitachi.

NAL
FEPACK: Analysis of Structures in LCA
Sold to domestic companies.

NAL
NTAF (National Transonic Aerodynamic Facility) used for LCA design.
Applications exist for other strategic projects.

NAL[74]
Carbon fibre Epoxy Prepregs: popular ‘building blocks’ in composite product development. NAL, with support from TIFAC and ADA has developed aerospace grade carbon fibre prepregs
Technology has been transferred to IPCL Vadodara.

NAL
AAVRITA a Comprehensive Fortran Software Package ‘AAVRITA’, for the electromagnetic (EM) design and analysis of radomes.
Radar design applications such as MMR.

NFC Hyderabad
Materials for LCA.

Ordinance Factory- Medak
Manufacturing of LCA parts and machinery.

OF Ambhazhari,
Al-Alloy-L77 for LCA extrusions
This removes the need to import Al-Cu alloys.

PSG College Coimbatore
Manufacturing of LCA parts and machinery.

RCI Hyderabad
CCU, actuators

SAMEER (DOE)
Antenna for communication equipment.

VSSC(ISRO) Trivandrum:
Actuator of Flight Control System

Appendix II: List of Private Companies, their immediate contributions and the possible spin-offs.

We have tried to present immediate contributions and possible spin-offs based on various sources. This is by no means an exhaustive list and we apologize for any mistakes.

COMPANY (ADDRESS)
IMMEDIATE CONTRIBUTION TO PROJECT
SPIN-OFFS AND/OR MARKET POTENTIAL

Ailga Rubber Works, Nagpur
Bought out items

Ajay Sensors & Instruments, Bangalore
Design and fabrication of manual control unit for ECS test battery

ASML, Bangalore
Simulator/Simulation.

Accord S/W & Systems, Bangalore
S/W

BALCO
Aluminum extrusions.

Bangalore Rubber Industries, Bangalore
Rubber Seals for Liquid Colling System of Radar

BASHI Aerospace, Hyderabad
LRUs and composite drop tanks.
Bashi has indigenously manufactured various items from valves to pilot static test rigs and they also make ground-testing equipment of components and aircraft parts.

Bhaskara Dynamiks, Bangalore
Attitude test rig for AMAGB

Compupatterns
Fabricating of tools, moulds and fixtures

CSM Software, Bangalore
Component analysis, failure mode analysis
This company also supplies to other defense projects. Defense and Aerospace are a large portion (~40%) of the companies assets [75].

Data Patterns, Chennai,
Testing of LCA avionics subsystems.
Company has potential applications in other projects Jaguar, MiG, ALH, PSLV and GSLV [75].

DCM Data Products, Delhi
S/W development

Eastern Engineering Company
Special Purpose Machine Tools
This company has a large product list, more information may be found at their website http://www.eastern-engineering.com/mfg.htm.

Firth India, Nagpur
Materials

Gururaja Engineering Works
Fabricating of tools, moulds and fixtures

High Energy Systems, Trichy
(NiCd battery)

Horseman India, Pune
Fabricating of tools, moulds and fixtures

Hyderabad Orthographic Engg
Electroselctros/Relief Valve,

INDAL.
Materials

Indfos Industries Ltd, New Delhi
Development of Hydro-mobile trolley for Ground Testing

India Machine Tools
Fabricating of tools, moulds and fixtures

JAI Sales Corportion, Bangalore
DC Power transient simulator, Universal test system

Janapriya Tools, Hyderabad
Fabricating of tools, moulds and fixtures

JINDAL
Materials extrusions for Al-Cu parts

JS lamps, Faizabad
LCA lamps

JV Tools, Hyderabad
Fabricating of tools, moulds and fixtures

Kanti Industry, Bangalore
Precision CNC Manufacturing

Karnataka Erectors, Bangalore
Fabrication of Combined Performance Test Rig (CVRDE) and Wheel Roll Test Rig (HAL-LD)

Khalsa Engineering Works, Kanpur
Fabricating of tools, moulds and fixtures

Kobayashi, Hyderabad
Machining of Precision Components

Kumaran Industries, Bangalore
Supplies all the metallic wing components, landing gear parts, critical fuselage parts and fin fittings, (~100 products). It also supplies 180 parts, including compressor shaft, compressor casing, and compressor blades, for the Kaveri engine.
It also manufactures about 250 parts for the Saras, a light plane developed by HAL and National Aerospace Laboratories (NAL). Parts include wing components, vertical tail, horizontal stabiliser, rear fuselage and door. For more information contact [email]kumaran@blr.vsnl.net.in[/email]

Kuvarp Industries, Bangalore
Development of Vulcanised Fuel system items

Lakshmi Patterns Works, Chennai (LPW)
Development of tooling for AMAGB castings and Pump castings for Radar Cooling

L&T, Bangalore.
Precision CNC Manufacturing

Microcon Instruments & Systems Ltd. Bangalore
PC based ECS simulator and Controller emulator DAS for Attitude Test Rig of AMAGB

Minitech, Bangalore
Fabricating of tools, moulds and fixtures

MTAR Machine Tool Aids & Reconditioning, Hyderabad.
LRUs Manufacture and Precision Tools.

Mobile Access Positioning (P) Ltd.,
15/A, Electronics City,
Bangalore – 561 229.
India.
Work related to Ground Checkout System (GCS), Coding and Control Unit (CCU), Mission Preparation and Retrieval Unit (MPRU), and Mission Computer Test Station (MCTS), Mission Computer (MC), Display Processor Test Station (DPTS), Digital Engine Control Unit (DECU)
This company has branched out into several product lines relating to positioning and tracking systems and embedded systems. It’s website may be found at http://www.emapnav.com/html/home.htm

A list of customers may be found at http://www.emapnav.com/html/customers.htm

Manjira Machine Builders, Hyderabad
Machine tools for LCA manufacture

Neonwires, Pune.
Bought out items

OMC, Hyderabad.
Simulator/Simulation

PEECO, Calcutta
Tools Moulds and Fixtures

Pratibha Industries Bangalore
Tools Moulds and Fixtures

Process Wire.
S/W development

Ramsoft Technologies (domestic branch of Fusion Software Engineering)
4/1, “Deviah Court”, 22nd Cross
8th Main, 3rd Block, Jayanagar
Bangalore – 560 011. India Tel: +91-80-8521191/92
Fax: +91-80-8521193
[email]rst.in@ramsoftech.com[/email]
Software design and development relating to the Mission Computer and other embedded systems with ASIEO and LRDE.
Company has diversified into several areas in embedded systems. More information about tis projects and clients can be found at http://www.ramsoftech.com/

Rashmi Tools, Hyderabad
Tools Moulds and Fixtures

Raghu Vamshi Engineering Services Hyderabad
Tools Moulds and Fixtures

RK Engineering Industries
Tools Moulds and Fixtures

Roshine Autoelectricals Ltd
Fabricating of tools, moulds and fixtures

Sanghvi Aerospace, Ahmedabad

SASMIRA Bombay
Design of spindles and weaving technology for Kevlar Socks needed to make MMR

Shanthi Gears Ltd, Coimbatire

LCA accessory gear boxes.
Shanti Gears has made, gears for ALH, Chetak, Lancer, screw jacks for nuclear projects, and custom-made gear boxes for testing battle tanks. email: [email]sglcbe@vsnl.com[/email], [email]sglcmd@vsnl.com[/email]
Home page: http://www.shantigears.com

Sheeba Computers
S/W development

Silicon Graphics, Delhi
Simulator/Simulation VRML for CAD
This is the beginnings of VRML based design in India.

Sujan industries, Mumbai
Rubber components LCA K-seal
email: [email]rubber.sujan@sujanind.sprintrpg.sprint.com[/email]

Southern Electronics, Bangalore
Fire detection and warning

Sujana Bangalore
S/W Development

System Controls

(Bangalore)
Air Data Test System (ADTS)
This company offers a variety of Avionics products, details may be found at their website http://www.system-controls.com/index.html and they have also recently moved into e-commerce

Tata Elxi, bangalore
Simulator/Simulation for Maintenance Operations.

Titanium Tantalum Products, Chennai
take-off engine gear shafts and indigenised a number of LCA components through GTRE
Company has built gun blast tubes based on samples given by HAL and is the only unit in the world who can make 5-tonne magnesium alloy casting which tests engine vibration and monitors corrosion rate.

Trabha Machineries, Bangalore
Fabricating of tools, moulds and fixtures

Triveni Hi-Tech Pvt. Ltd

[email]THPL@bgl.vsnl.net.in[/email], [email]thplnms@blr.vsnl.net.in[/email]
Manufacturers of Aircraft, Aero engine components and sub assemblies.
LCA combustion liner The company has supplied tig-welded rings for the LCA’s Kaveri engine.
Triveni Hi-Tech has reverse-engineered scarce parts of Mi helicopters and the MiG-21. It caters exclusively to machining needs of defense-related undertakings. Pratt & Whitney approves this company for engine related work.

Turbotech, Bangalore
Uplock 3 Types

Unnathi Corp, Ahmedabad
Trial weaving of Carbon Fibre cloth.

Vishnu Forge
Steel Forgings

Vision Labs, Hyderabad
Simulator/Simulation.

Vivasonics, Hyderabad
Portable C-SPAN equipment for detecting flaws in Composites
Useful in other quality CFC manufactures.

Venkateshwara Mechanical and Electrical Engineering Industries.
Fabricating of tools, moulds and fixtures

Vizarya Gauges and Equipments
Fabricating of tools, moulds and fixtures

Walchand Industries
Fabricating of tools, moulds and fixtures

WIDIA, Bangalore
C-SPAN equipment for detecting flaws in composites.
Useful in other quality CFC manufactures.

WIPRO Bangalore.
S/W Development

Yukew India, Bangalore
Fabricating of tools, moulds and fixtures

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/ISSUE3-5/sainis.html

Oh heres more.

They can afford it. Like I said- given money(the incentive) and a challenge- the US aero industry can deliver like blazes. They deserve respect and remain the competition to emulate.

Karna has the 29->29SMT upg pgm been started or is confirmed but awaiting the bars29 radar ? will it involve the enlarge spine for
extra fuel ?
the airframes are young, if they zero the hrs back with
heavy repair, get Bars29, RD33MK engines , glass cockpit
and the MKI mission computer could easily serve another
15-20 yrs.

NIIP actually- already has the OSA. But it was a bit bereft of funding. Given funding MiG29-ising the Bars shouldnt be that hard. This would be a hefty order for NIIP and a hard won victory (and snub) over traditional rival Phazatron.

I see Indias reliance on NIIP as positive. Keeps them firmly in our camp and besides NIIP is the lead for the Fifth Gen a/c’s AFAR(as the Russians refer to it) aka AESA radar.

The Bisons will remain Kopyo though.

Hi,

To be sure we will hear a lot of noise about CEC, net-centric warfare etc from the navy and the retired mandarins. But I fear that this hot air will be unaccompanied by concrete steps to acquire and integrate such technology. Remember the much ado about the “Information Warfare” Squadrons of the IN? Remember how misleading it turned out to be?

Hi, its hardly misleading. The term IW can have many ramifications to it and in a sense of the word- the In dorniers are IW capable. They are equipped with the most capable Elint gear in the Indian inventory, with the possible exception of three IAF a/c. Given the later vintage of the former, its quite presumable that the Dorniers are at the top of the pack. Also the IN dorniers are capable of finding out and sensing information- never mind whether they do so via their search radar’s, FLIR or Elint gear. Information is information- especially to the IAF and IN who use it to make it their EOB.

The words may have conjured images of online hacking etc- but in a real sense they arent far off.

And secondly the IN is working towards NCW- talk to the chaps who are involved in it. I know you do- perhaps you missed the latest?

Harry:

You seem to know very well the IAF, so can you answer me the following questions:

1) Wich enterprises are directly involved in the manteinance of the Fulcrum fleet in India?

HAL Nasik/Ozhar and IAF’s Base Repair depot 11.

2) Wich is the normal Flight hours value of Fulcrum/Flanker pilots actually in the IAF?

Fulcrum pilots pull upto 250 hours. Minimum requirement- like for rookies- is the 180 hrs/yr.

5) They’re any plans to upgrade the SE fleet once the K-2008 did arrive?
6) What happened to the plans to buy new fighters?, those 125 a/c, MiG-29M1/M2 or Mirage-2000-5Mk2…??

The IAF is upgrading its MiG29’s to the SMT standard, albeit with Bars-29 radars.
This is separate from a requirement for 126 multirole a/c which the Mirage 2000- v won against the MiG29 MRCA.

For the guys, if any of yours havy any intersting question about the Fulcrum mantainance, I’m with a Chief Crew in the 33 IAP (at Sernograd, Russia)…so if anyone is intersted…

Welcome to the forum, Pit. We’d appreciate your presence both on the board and this thread in particular!

Any snippets/ comments on MiG29 maintenance procedures would be welcome.

Every nation has its priorities- given that the Germans were involved in the Eurofighter and forked over serious money, can you blame them for trying to make the best of it?

In retrospect- most of the problems with the EF program can be traced to the above- its a jet made by consensus. It will come good, especially because of the work put in by excellent firms in their own right, but the fact that the design teams have had to pander to every team constituents personal agenda etc has certainly led to brutal delay.

In retrospect, the UK would have been better off it had gone it alone and made a more modest design on the lines of BAe’s EAP.

The best option would have to codevelop an a/c with the French, but then again that could have opened another can of worms.

IIRC despite its excellent performance, the Sepecat Jaguar never really came into its own either in the RAF or the French AF.

Check with both Richard Fisher’s articles from the USCC and Hui Tong’s website.

http://www.uscc.gov/researchreports…orcesystems.htm

“But it also appears that the PLAAF may more ambitious plans for the J-11. In mid-2002 Russian sources indicated Shenyang was also pursuing another multi-role version of the J-11 with high PRC content.[30] This was confirmed at the 2003 Moscow airshow. This second version apparently will feature a new Chinese multi-mode radar, avionics and possibly the WS-10A turbofan—which was tested on a J-11 in 2002. The new J-11 version is also expected to be armed with PLA-made weapons, to include the SD-10 active-guided AAM, and very likely, a new SRAAM in development, plus a range of attack munitions. To the disappointment of some Sukhoi officials, this Shenyang version will not draw on Sukhoi intentions to produce a similar upgrade with Russian components, but much sooner.”

What Richard Fisher has been saying is only a mere affirmation of many independent rumors and reports filtering out from China. Fisher obtained his by interviewing the Russians, although I’ve already heard something from this from a disclosure from Phazotron to Jane’s.

So the PRC is pursuing- with what degree of success? Do we have confirmed figures on that?

Yet the Chinese made it public they actually flew a J-11 with one domestic engine in one side, and the AL-31F in the other. Recently we got solid photos of a J-11 with both engines using the purported WS-10A.

That was for the J10 program was it not? Thats hardly comparable to shifting over to WS10’s for the J11 fleet overall.

Wrong again.

The WS-10A was first tested live on the J-11, not on the J-10. Given the differences of the way the engine fits on the two planes—the J-11 would require the gearbox on the upper, not lower—its obvious

Dude. You just confirmed what I said. IOW I am correct.

Once again, radars are small potatoes compared to engines. If they can do it with engines, they would do it with the radar.

Apples to oranges. The example you have quoted is non contextual.

Wrong again.

It has something to do with the context of applying indigenous content on the licensed planes.

The engines being a greater percentage component over radar or avionics—if such was allowed, it would mean virtually the whole plane

Arent you guessing here? What confirmation do we have that the Russians have agreed to let WS10’s supplant Al31’s? In the present series?

The rather surprising cold “consideration” the Chinese gave on the SKM upgrade proposal is another pointer that the Chinese are running their own project.

Not necessarily. They may be holding out for a better price or better specs or both.

Perhaps, but I doubt that.

But again, a seperate Jane’s report from Robert Hewson indicated that China may already have received 100 of such kits from 2001, perhaps more now (this is 2004, the Hewson report was from 2003).

The N001VEP upgrade, if performed on the J-11s, would not be a costly and time consuming upgrade. It can be performed within weeks (three weeks was the time it took to convert the Su-27UB to the UBM standard with a similar multirole N001 based radar.) It is not inclusive or exclusive if the Chinese will apply their own upgrades later. Rather, it could be a two stage process.

J-11 — Based on generic Su-27SK package

J-11A — Modified to a subset of the SKM standard. This converts the plane into a single seater MKK but without IFR probe and some other features.

J-11B — Using Chinese upgrades.

http://www.stormpages.com/jetfight/J-10_J-11_FC-1.htm

“It was also reported that SAC has been upgrading Su-27SKs and J-11s to the Su-27SMK standard with kits supplied by Russia (dubbed J-11A?), making it a multirole figther to better complement the more advanced Su-30MKK. The upgrade includes two color MFDs, plus an improved radar (N001VE derivative?), enhanced navigation and computer fits (with MIL-STD 1553B databus). A futher upgrade program (J-11B?) might include a Chinese multifunction PD radar (Type 1474/KLJ4?) compatible with SD-10 AAM and replacing AL-31F with the indigenous WS-10A. One WS-10A (13,200kg class) turbofan was successfully tested on a J-11 testbed (currently belonging to CFTE) in June 2002.”

So indeed, the two projects may not be inclusive. One is a stepping stone towards the other. I’ll wager that China would be extending the J-11 licensing rights to include the new upgraded J-11s.

http://www.uscc.gov/researchreports…orcesystems.htm

“If this rate is sustained the 1996 contract could be fulfilled by 2005-2006. Again, Russian sources say that following the completion of the 1996 contract, there will be a second co-production contract.[28] At this point the number of new J-11s for the second contract is not known, but the longevity of SAC’s J-11 program appears assured.”

I have to disregard the first site. No offense meant- but its an amateur site and notes what is often rumint.
The second link is Rick Fishers. Now isnt RF often castigated for playing up the “red Threat” when it comes to the PRC?
Do we have someone more credible- such as Ken Allen- mentioning the same?

Quote:
Exactly. So the point is that Russia would still rather have its products on the Flankers and perhaps the PlAAF itself is waiting for the local upgrades to mature before it contemplates an expensive and time consuming transition.

Of course the Russians would rather have their own products on the Flankers but it is up for them to win the Chinese favoritism. The book is still not fully closed.

To win the favor, they would have to lower prices, offer more incentives, and integrate Chinese missiles to the radar.

Yup. But they might ask for a hefty cut.

Quote:
Again- what do we have apart from a handful of pics and few and far between reports?

The handful of pics are pretty solid if you ask me.

Pics can be staged.

Quote:
Breakthroughs? Sure, why not. But that still doesnt imply a tried and tested product from a manufacturer with a proven name (tried and tested wrt the lineage) and again we simply do not know whether the Russians will agree. In fact, given what I know of them I’d wager they’ll put a spanner in the works if China attempts to remod the Flankers on its own.

The fact is the Russians already know about this for quite sometime. If they had wanted to stop, they would have done so before. Or simply they may not have the power to stop it.

They may still be trying for all we know. Them be businessmen.

Quote:
So what. Many Russian enterprises are TOTALLY dependent on Indian largesse. But they still do everything to have things their own way.
Again we are speculating on “he said she said”. Do we have conclusive evidence either way?

No Russian enterprise are dependent on the over US$ billion PER YEAR like Sukhoi does with China.

Every year, Sukhoi is always seriously negotiating with the Chinese for the next MKK and Su-27 parts buy. At some point they would have agreed something in the overall picture.

Sukhoi would probably have allowed the use of Chinese radars and engines into the J-11s as part of a compromise package that would ensure that China would continue buying at least 20-30 Su-30MKKs per year for the next few years until a certain quantity has been reached. China probably “exchanged” the rights to license MKK for the J-11 indigenisization rights. The reason why I think about this is that reports or rumors of China licensing the MKK quickly died as soon as the reports/rumors of the J-11 being indigenized further started coming in.

Again- do we have confirmed reports of Sukho agreeing to the same? Unless we have them, we can only guess . And even the most well intentioned and logical guesswork can be wrong.

Sukhoi’s willingness to allow these rights is probably also due to the pressure from the competing J-10 project from Chengdu.

Sukhoi has a choice—make the J-11s more appealing to the Chinese leadership by allowing Chinese radars and engines or such, or lose the market to the J-10. It’s also a politically motivated choice.

Given the PAF ACM’s comment, it may well be that the PRC radars etc have some miles to go before they sleep. Hence the Russians may have some leeway.

http://www.centerforsecuritypolicy….page=zhuhai2002

“More SD-10 and Short-Range AAM Details

Sources noted that the PLAAF has conducted about 20 test flights for the new Louyang SD-10 (Project 129) active-guided air-to-air missile (AAM). The tests included full missile self-guided to target missions. Louyang vociferously denied reports that the SD-10’s radar and data link are from the Russian AGAT bureau, insisting they were indigenous. Louyang also said that they are considering SAM and naval SAM variants of the SD-10. A brochure of the SD-10 exists but they were not distributing them. A Louyang official also noted that their new advanced short-range AAM would be smaller than existing PL-9 and PL-5 models, and would be helmet-sighted.”

Lets take the Luoyang guys at their word.

Phazotron did indeed reveal that China and Russia are co developing a compatibility project across their radars and missiles to enable each other’s radars to work with each other missiles. The benefits are obvious. For example, a J-10 with domestic radar can shoot the R-77, or an Su-30MKK with Russian radar is able to launch a C-803 AshM.

Sure. Thats exactly what I said. Phaza will make sure its fingers are in the pie.

It’s not a guaranteed buy. The entire contest who will be the radar on the future J-11s will be based on merit. Phazotron is a far shot.

With Kanwa reporting that the FC-1 05 will be equipped with a Type 147X radar, and factory posters showing that the J-7G is equipped with KLJ-6E radar, this is indication that the PLAAF is trying to standardize on radars based on the NRIET institute. (Type 147X is PLA designation for the NRIET factory designation of KLJ-X). J-8IIs and J-10s are already using radars based on this institute (KLJ-1/Type 1471 for the J-8II, and KLJ-3/Type 1473 for the J-10). The NRIET radars are designed to launch the SD-10, and indeed the J-8II equipped with these units was the first to fire the SD-10.

Thus it makes sense for the J-11Bs to be equipped with NRIET radars.

“A futher upgrade program (J-11B?) might include a Chinese multifunction PD radar (Type 1474/KLJ4?) compatible with SD-10 AAM and replacing AL-31F with the indigenous WS-10A.”
__________________

The PLAAF may be spending its tax yuan as best as it can. Imports are expensive and design houses compete via politcal power as well. So NRIET may or may not be the choice. We still dont know whether Chinese radars outperform the best of whats on offer from Elta or Phaza.