Clearly I doubt that.

Common sense.

Engines are not plug and play, and neither are airframes. The engine on the J-11 would have its gearbox on the top; the J-10 would need the gearbox on the low. The J-10’s also need to be smaller and more compact. You would need two seperate versions of the engines just for the two aircraft.

You don’t put this engine on an Su-27 airframe without meaning to do it in the long run. The Chinese reports I’ve seen do plan to have the engine initiated as early as 2005 and for the J-11 first, before moving on to the J-10.

Why screw around with a proven airframe? This is an engine change, and the new engine is built to be as unobstrusive as possible. This is not the case of an airframe being built around an engine, more like the other way around.

The Chinese are obsessed with self sufficiency. My guess is that they made it a priority that 100% of the Su-27 can and should be made in China as a strategic goal.

Crobato, look at the Indians. They too are planning to fly the Kaveri in a Su30. Its a logical thing to use the Su for an engine test. One flames out, it can make it back on its widely spaced remaining Al31.
So the put engine in Su- despite the effort as you point out, need not mean that they’re planning to change the engines for the Su fleet.

Given the Chinese mantra for self sufficiency- they would have built up considerable facilities for maintenace etc. Will they chuck all these out to induct an unproven engine for their Su fleet today?

There are strategic advantages, all less foreign dependency. At 13,200kg, the WS-10A is indeed more powerful than the AL-31F, about the equal of the AL-31FM1, although the latter appears to be offered to China as well. China would have the edge in the maintenance and the logistics of the engine. They can have strict control of the quality, and if the quality fails, got no one to blame for it. AL-31Fs do not have a spotless record—it tends to have annoying quality issues that sours both India’s and China’s imipression on it. If the Chinese believe they can put their own engine on it, its possible they can keep their running costs and increase flight time assuming indeed the new engine is indeed for the better.

Crobato- what you say makes ample sense for the long run. Not the short term. If you were the PLAAF commander and you have merely 10 Su’s available out of 100 (just giving an example) because a new engine was put in lieu of the moreorless reliable Al31, you’d throw a fit.
No engine has a spotless record. For the record, the IAF bitches as much about the Adour as about the Al31. Every AF when it gets its hands on some eqpt will bitch about it, to some extent. Some of these gripes will be justified, some not, the way things work.

The J-XXX’s are starting to roll in. And that’s the other point for China. China is showing its finger at Sukhoi in particular, using the J-10 and the 100% indigenous J-11. But it’s not fair to say that actually. Sukhoi did try to get China to buy Su-35s and TVC Su-30MKs (using a Phazotron radar instead of Bars). Even had serious talks on the Su-33 as well. But they all probably come with a high price tag, and China is not willing to pay luxo-car prices. The indigenization of the J-11 has a lot to do with reducing the cost factors. Either the Russians lower the bill, or China uses their own. Regardless China wins. Indiginization also forces the Russians to up the technology stakes of what they offer to China; the stuff they sell have to be better.

Crobato- we still dont know whether the JXXX’s are 100% indigenous. yes, we know that x,y.z talked about industry sources speculating the same. But we dont know for sure. Ok even with indigenous 100% JXXX’s my point was contextual- namely the Su’S will remain the lance. Whether they be Chinese or Russian. This wrt the advnatges vis a vis the JH, J10 etc.

Oh yes, the WS-10A is also being tested with TVC versions and from what I heard the Chinese radars being developed for the J-11 may involve phase array. But it is not as if the Russians did not offer TVC for the MKK—both TVC and phase array (in the form of the Phazotron Sokol and Tikhomirov Pero, not the Bars) are in the list of items approved for China. The odd thing is, China might actually buy and deploy both Russian and indigenous systems. China’s acquisitions are full of redundancy. It staggers the mind for any practical reason why they do it, but they do it still.

The Bars outperforms the Pero. Be as it may, do we know for sure how many WS10’s are in service? What their performance specs are? How the MTBF is?
As to what China is doing- so do so many other nations with aerospace ambitions? I mean- why rely on someone else when you can rely on yourself?

Song vs. Kilo subs
Sovremanny vs 052B DDGs
Su-30MK2 vs JH-7A
Su-27 vs. J-10
S-300 vs. HQ-9

In each case, does the foreign analog (russian language here) outperform the Chinese one or not? Tho’ the ships are close comparators.

So yes, the indignization of the J-11 has to do with the Su-27 now being bread and butter—the MKKs continue to be built in Russia and sold to China. Will Sukhoi profit? Yes. Sukhoi may still get a licensing fee from every plane built. The more planes built the better. It’s a pure paper profit too. In a contract build, Sukhoi has to pay factories like KnAAPO and parts subcontractors, and that whittles down on the profits significantly. So long China does not export the Su-27s they make.

If the Su’s become the bread and butter, where does that leave the JH. You are buttressing my point.

Sukhoi is not worried about giving the Su-27 away to China. It is gambling on the assumption that by the time China masters the Su-27, it is obsolete and Sukhoi will get enough funds for PAK-FA development. Indiginization does not give your best techs away, and furthermore allows Sukhoi to directly compete against Chinese indigenous fighters on both a cost and political basis. The planes will not only be cheaper, but they can satisfy any hardliner in the Chinese government playing the national self sufficiency priority speech. This puts Sukhoi in the good side of the Chinese government and even encourage more Su-30 sales in the future which will carry a higher price tag with the higher technology content.

If you look at the situation deeper, Sukhoi may be playing smart here, rolling with the waves, bending with the wind to get an even better strategic position, playing like an ancient Chinese strategy piece.

Nice but not confirmed. Su may just be doing what it can.

and just why isnt it comparable to shiftung over to the WS10s for the J11s? its like saying that lockheed martine would not use F22 tech and systems on the F35 and would instead prefer to design brand new systems instead.

if the WS10s can be used in the J11s, then what does it matter what programme put the engine in the plane in the first place? if it works then the chinese can use it. the only thing stopping them would most likely be legal obligations in the contracts. however, these legal requirements are rarely, if ever written in stone and can almost always be changed. and if the WS10 is in the J11, then it looks like it has been changed hasnt it?

It does matter. What it implies is that the engine was put in the a/c to test the engine not to replace the current engines with something better. Why trifle with something that works and has been acuired at considerable expense? Also we are left with Q2- will the Russians agree to have their airframe mucked around with?

unlikely, with recent developments in the tiawan straits, the PLA is effectively on a war footing, saving a few $m here and there pales in comparison to the potential of loosing tens of $bns worth in planes and hundreds if not thousands of pilots in combat if the equipment they are using are not quite up to scratch.

C’mon. These recent developments are pretty much cyclical; Evry few years a few fists are shaken, a few hostile words are spoken- but nothing much comes of it.
IMHO, the PLAAF will require far more than a few upgrades to win an air war over the ROCAF, backed as it will probably be by USN and perhaps USAF units. Also there is the Q of $, could the PLAAF afford to apply patches here there everywhere on a cointuous basis- or would it prefer a more phased uniform upgrade, no easy answers.

well the PLA didnt just get their flankers yesterday. the first flankers arrived in china well over a decade ago, and even then they were far from state-of-the-art by russian terms. so whats to say the PLA didnt have the same idea you pointed out above, but over a decade ago, and now its the time that local products are coming into their own?

Logically said. I based my commnets on the recent PAF comments. They still dont consider the PLAAF avionics fits to be quite mature enough. Given their fetish for western avionics etc and their unfettered access to what China makes, their comments hold some weight.

well with the chinese military, ‘a handful of pics and few and far between reports’ is the best that outsiders like you and i can expect. there werent even pics of the JH7 and J10 until they were almost ready for service. you can wait for your ‘written in stone’ confermations, but then you will always be a couple of years behind what is really happening.

these are the ‘rules’ with modern chinese military activities, if you dont like them, then the only thing you can do is give up and do something else, cos there is absolutely nothing any of us can do to change the way things work.

as for ‘tried and tested product from a manufacturer with a proven name (tried and tested wrt the lineage)’, well would any one of the world’s top companies meet those riquirements when they first started out? and its not like the likes of NRIET are newcomers in the chinese aviation industry either.

sometimes i think some people put too much emphysis on the company name. ‘mig’ was once one of the world military aviation’s top names and symbole for soviet combat ac. but how many now would prefer a mig over a suhoi or mirage?

im not trying to say that company names count for nothing, they will be influentual, but in the end what really matters is the product. its not like the PLA would commit to paper specs. the companies in question would need to deliver a finished product that goes through the same standard serious of tests, and if it performs better then products from more famous and established names, would you think the PLA would reject it merely because of the lable?

I think the PLAAF works well within its constraints but the above seems a bit tangential to the discussion at hand so lets let it be.
Anyway, I stated the avionics bit in an earlier post- my take is that the PLAAF is doing what anyone in their position should. Import as sophistcated items as can be imported and rely on indigenous units for bread and butter ones. Hence Russian units would comprise the former, given the export ban on European ones.

the question is not about the degree of dependence but rather of opportunity cost.

china has a more developed aviation industry then india. that means that china has more cards at the table – it has a lower opportunity cost if it decides to shift purchases from russian to chinese products.

for india, often the only suitable alternative is a wester paltform, which is far more expensive then their russian counterparts, so for all the tough talk of the indians, the russians will always know that their bark is worst then their bite and india will not switch as long as they dont push the indians too far.

but switching (ie cancelling) contracts is only a worst case scenario. the much more likely approach would be that china is using future purchases as the main bargining chip. china can increase or decrease the numbers and/or types it wish to purchase to put pressure on or tempt the russians.

again, opportunity cost comes into play. if what the chinese are offering in terms of future contracts approaches or surpasses what the russians are expecting to make from things like radar upgrades, engine overhauls, munitions sales etc, then russia will go for the deal and allow china to put its own products onto whatever they want. its just all about numbers.

There are other factors to consider and some of your data is regrettably misleading. For one, India does not have an export ban on it so it frequently purchases from others to nip the Russians. And another, that India’s aviation industry is structured different to China’s and possesses more depth in several areas of tech, thanks to considerable coop with Russia and Europe. In essence- the Russian leverage on India is hamstrung by the above. And as you note, its hamstrung on China thanks to Chinas budget and preference for Russian weapons. At the same time, a single vendor situation is hardly preferable.

Today the IAF is showing the russian offer of MiG29’S a polite finger and plumping for Mirages. Now could China do the same with the Su’s- which are the lance of its AF…? Once the JXXX’s start rolling in, perhaps, but till then the plaaf will have to play with some restrictions.

Crobato, nice post-I’ll reply later .

Hmmm not good news for the SD10 huh?

biggest advantage of a JDAM is its weatherproof compared to a LGB etc.

do u know what is the PGM to DB ratio in the indian air force arsenal??

Buddy even if I knew would anyone post that in an open forum?

Anyway- Id wager right now- its def not as high as say as in the US (not that I needed to say that) but its improving. After 1999 we bought a lot of stuff from Israel and Russia, worth millions.

Also the present upgrades call for more precise bomb delivery from higher alt.
So even w/o PGM’s IAF can do a lot of damage staying out of manpads , SRSAM envelope. Which is what is the bulk of PAF/Chinese AD consists of.

Sanctions impacting the US components in the Brit systems.
Eg Sea king choppers

Rip.

Well, from tee drinking you won’t get too much Mirage spares, that is for sure… :rolleyes: I suggest they stop the crap with new Gripens, new FC-1s and new J-10s and start investing in something more useful than a high-society jet flying club, mainly in their education and industry. And then, after thirty years, we can talk about it…

Amen.