KarnaUS engine done deal for LCA means that Kaveri is still in Russia where the Russian engineers doing their best to mak something out of it.
Quit blabbering. The Russians only provide a test facility. The US engine deal is only for the initial Limited series production trial a/c. Kindly dont extrapolate the Pak- China relationship to the India- Russia one. 😀
And it means that the US stopped FBW for LCA they just can stop spare parts for the engine.
So let them. Then they’ll lose out elsewhere. The French and the Russians are always ready to oblige and the desire to be independent is exactly why the Kaveri is being put through an intensive trails process.
And heres a clue. The US denial of FBW just meant that we went ahead and did it on our own.
About F16. PAF has left that road. Read between the lines of last ACM interview in afm july 2004. OR do I have to say that I was not there to interview him?
Left the road after wailing about it for well nigh over a decade and a half? Wow, I am impressed. Seriously, many of your brass deserve to hang from the rafters for mucking up the PAF’s force acquisition policy so properly.
And about Gripen. How funny it was when India asked for 120 Gripens for replacing Mig23/27 just after Pakistan showed intrest for 60… Or do you guys do not read AFM mag?
Yawn, the Gripen was part of a competition which the Mirage 2000 won. Another runner was the MiG29 MRCA. The French offered a better deal and the IAF chose them. Can you post anything relevant?
About IAF flying F16… Most of the Indian planes are well known by PAF. Either China or arabs. I doubt any nation will sit and wait till they see them in actual combat.
Your point being? The cite of IAF pilots flying F16’s goes to show that its hardly any great deal to access it. Unlike the brouhaha that you guys make out of it. I mean the F16 seems to be the one and only option for the PAF the way y’all act…its like a wunderweapon or something…
KarnaKarna
Chill dude, this was simply to point out that India was never given the option to purcase F-16s as some members have implied, thats all. No one has a fascination with F-16s anymore….
I am afraid- the option story is pretty much still open. I suggest you change your wording when you attempt to post as well. Cheap jibes are not really conducive to a discussion on aviation….
KarnaThe US may even be reuluctant to let the IAF chief even fly in an F-16…..
NEW DELHI: If the Americans don’t play spoilsport, an Indian Air Chief may become the first in history to get into the cockpit of an F-16 fighter aircraft and take it for a spin in the skies.
Air Chief S Krishnaswamy could be presented this opportunity when he visits Tel Aviv on September 4 at the invitation of Israel’s Vice Chief of Defence Staff Dan Halutz.
Sources said Krishnaswamy, who holds a test pilot licence and has flown the Mirage-2000 and Sukhoi-30, will be visiting two Israeli Air Force bases in course of his trip. This is when he could get his chance to get behind the controls of an American F-16.
The only thing that stands in the way of the Air Chief donning his fighter gear in Israel is a green light from the Americans.
Apart from flying, Krishnaswamy will review the progress of the $3 billion PHALCON AWACS deal for which an agreement was signed between India, Israel and Russia last year. India is seeking to fit the PHALCON on three IL-76 transport aircraft, even as Pakistan seeks to buy AWACS from Sweden.
In his capacity as Chairman of Chiefs of Staff Committee, Krishnaswamy may also get a peek at the Soltam 155 howitzer. This is among the guns the Indian Army is currently examining and the contract could be worth Rs 5000 crore.
Krishnasswamy’s visit to Israel comes on the heels of one made by Army Vice Chief Lt General Shantanu Chaudhary in June this year and another by Navy Chief Admiral Arun Prakash in July. Obviously, despite its support for the Palestinian cause, the UPA government is keeping the Indo-Israeli defence relationship as warm as ever.
Given that IAF pilots have already flown the F16 in Israel- thats no big deal.
Krishnaswamy’s mission is more of a politico-military purchase one, not a “lets train on F16’s” one.
KarnaForget Yahoo, I73- he is blathering as usual.
The Bars is a phased array- a fact which he neglects to mention as well. As well as teh fact that India is getting TOT for the same and it already has indian input. Further upgrades have also been spoken of- including better TWT’s and recievers plus s/w upgrades.
Note that the Zhuk MS by itself is an excellent system ,its just that Yahoo as usual is in denial land and sees it as the best ever and the Bars sucks coz the IAF has it. Remember he claimed that the JF17 was the best there was and easily superior to the Su series, based on some arbit hoopla about “how future air wars will be per Yahoo” etcetc 😀
KarnaJags rock !
Jaguar thunder rips US shield
New Delhi, Aug. 17: Indian Air Force bombers returned to base today after war games hosted by the US in Alaska in which they claimed to have penetrated through US air defence twice, it was disclosed at a “hot debriefing” at their base in Ambala this afternoon.
The IAF had deployed six Jaguar deep-penetration strike aircraft to Alaska for the fortnight-long Exercise Cooperative Cope Thunder 04-01 that ended on July 30. The IAF had also sent two IL-76 heavy-duty transporters, its two new IL-78 refuellers and more than 200 personnel led by Group Captain S. Nanodkar.
Air force sources said the Jaguars had penetrated through defensive cover and scored “direct hits” on ground targets in ranges in Alaska. The war games involved sorties from the Eielson and Elmendorf air force bases. The war games are hosted by the US Pacific Command Air Force.
In February this year, in war games hosted by India named Cope India, IAF MiGs gave the US air force F-15Cs a hard time. It was acknowledged by a US military journal, Inside the Air Force, and by a general of the US Air Combat Command, Hal Hornburg, that the exercise had revealed that the US air force capabilities were not as vastly superior as had been presumed.
Details of war games are slow to emanate because participants do not want to comment before analysing the experience. The team was taken for the “hot debriefing” as a routine in Ambala, the home base of the Jaguars that were deployed, for the IAF top brass to assess the results of the war games.
Exercise Cooperative Cope Thunder 04-01 was a multinational Dissimilar Combat Training Exercise that involved air forces from Asia-Pacific and Nato countries — Canada, the UK, Germany, Mongolia, Singapore, Japan and Malaysia among others. Not all countries deployed fighter aircraft.
The Indian Air Force began an intensive series of international exercises with Exercise Garuda with the French in Gwalior last year. That was an eye-opener for the IAF which took a beating in the drill with French Mirages, some flown by pilots who had seen action in the skies over Kosovo. The French had superior avionics with ability to strike Beyond Visual Range.
In the India-US exercise in February this year, the Americans had deployed ageing aircraft that are part of the US air force frontline but cannot be said to be at the cutting edge, technologically.
The Indian Air Force is now preparing contingents for fresh international exercises in September and October. Next month, an IAF contingent comprising four Mirage 2000 multi-role aircraft from their home base in Gwalior will fly to South Africa for another multinational exercise hosted by the South African Air Force called Exercise Golden Eagle.
The contingent, to be led by Group Captain T.S. Ahluwalia, will leave Gwalior on September 11 and include an IL 79 heavy transporter and an IL 78 refueller. Gwalior is the base for two IAF Mirage squadrons and the Tactics and Air Combat Development Establishment that draws up plans for drills and war games. The contingent will fly to Thiruvananthapuram and is likely to touch down in Mauritius and Madagascar.
The South African Air Force is also known to fly a different variant of Mirage fighters. Also participating in Exercise Golden Eagle will be elements of the US, German and the British air forces.
In October, the IAF will engage six F-16 fighters being brought over by the Singapore Air Force.
The IAF does not have the American F-16s in its inventory but the Pakistan Air Force flies the aircraft. The exercises with the Singapore force will include sorties over Kalaikunda, Gwalior and Pokhran in mid-October.
http://www.telegraphindia.com/1040818/asp/nation/story_3639382.asp
KarnaGDL & PhantomII,
Sure the PAK FA does not exist yet.
But without any mention of the PAK FA, the EF debate would be sterile at best.
Are we to evaluate how good the EF will be-
1. In terms of commercial success
or
2. How it would fare against current and future threats
For 1- sure EF is good enough
For 2…hence the PAK FA. Dont call it the PAK FA if you wish…call it the future Russian fifth gen a/c.
PhantomII,
Re: MiG 1.44- thats apples to oranges, MiG was on the verge of collapse and unveiled the 1.44 in a desparate bid to gain attention and garner funds.
Whereas Sukhoi is doing pretty decently and has institutional support VVS/IAF etc..
Re: avionics- I am afraid you are being overconfident. The Russians have already proven that with third party input they can churn out whatever the Euros can. Besides, its the era of COTS, most people can use that to their advantage. Also note NIIP and Phaza will be working together on the AFAR? Thats serious synergy, besides NIIP was interested in roping in Thales as well.
_____________________________________________________
Now the question is – can the EF incorporate LO tech without substantial redesign?
Crobato- good point. The export JSF’s may be pretty downgraded and hence fair game for a EF when carrying external stores as well.
Karnahttp://www.tassphoto.com/images/photo/orig/d195/973.JPG Check this link for the Yemeni MiG-23 overhaul perhaps these are being upgraded to MiG-23-98 standard although they look as if they were just being built
To my knowledge only India has updated it`s fleet of MiG-27M to MiG-27-98 standard; perhaps other operator such as Yemen have updated their MiG-23 as in the picture where some Yemei MiG-23 are being overhaul on a MiG plant along side MiG-29s but to be honest i do not know any other MiG-23 operators except India with it`s Mig-27M that have been upgraded to that standard but what i know is that an upgrade can be as cheap as USD$300,000 just to to make an old saphire to fire AA-10, AA-11, AA-12 and have multitarget engagement capability or USD$1 million to change the saphire with a new radar that allows the same armament plus some overhaul to the airframe do you know any?I know the Czech republic tested the magic 550 AAM on it`s MiG-23ML
I am surprised nobody picked this up. The IAF Mig’s are not upgraded to the Mig 27-98 standard- they are a pretty much IAF specific upgrade done by Indian industry. The upgrade brings the MiG27’s to present day stds but the Russians were pretty cut up about HAL being able to do it alone and hence losing out on all the moolah.
Perhaps they may still get involved if the IAF antes up more money for an AL31F derivative engine replacement. But I doubt it.
KarnaOne must look at the area of presence first. Eurofighters will probably never fight their battle on worldwide battlefields, but they surely will fight their battles on worldwide markets. That is how cookie crumbles. If the EF is able to beat F-15s, JSFs, Rafales, Su-30s and to achieve export orders, then it is a VERY good aircraft.. 😉
I mean, look at the F/A-22. There were zillions of dollars stucked in and the bird probably won’t even be cleared for export. There will be some 330 units produced which are not necessary anyway, because US will never be fighting developed nations who can afford 4th gen multirole aircraft rather than making business with these. And for the rest even F-15s would be more than enough.. Let’s face it. the zillions of dollars will fly for some decades and then rotten on some forgotten AMARC airfield.
Or does anybody here still believe that all those damn expensive aircraft are really produced and purchased for any war? What war?
Well put but on the purely technical level- can a EF in the air superiority role pick up and attack a JSF successfully?
KarnaI don’t see any PAK FA entering any service soon. And I think that EF2000 has its potential if you look at the adversaries. Would everyone invest that much extra to get stealth advantage on a bigger scale?
Apart from the JSF/F22 the PAK FA is the only a/c that may be developed in the future. Both Russia and India need it. For their own reasons…ranging from keeping their technology industries viable to keeping their AF’s current.
And yes LO is worth paying for. A sq of F22’s could wipe the floor with an entire mini AF if they play their cards right and fight using their networked abilities, tied to long range sensors.
KarnaSure I am nitpicking. I defined obsolete as in not incorporating significant LO technology. Apart from the limited amounts it presently has. And that will really hurt were it to go against the next gen LO fighter.
Of course, context being what it is.. above may be a bit hypothetical. I dont see Indian/ Russian PAK FA’s travelling across Yurope to whack old blighty..
KarnaBut I do wonder whether others – evn USAF vets- forget the same. If you look at people like even Yeager and their accounts in bios etc- its all rah, rah US most of the way (only US trained AF’s are the bees knees, evryone else sucks), there is little of that respect which a professional grants his opponent, even if the opponent is a bitter one.
KarnaGood for Mexico, this should help out their economy to an extent.
Russia should take a more active role so the US can cut off support to Mexico until such time where they choose to learn the meaning of and enforce international borders. Or we find the money to build a minefield.
Without the mexican workforce CA would collapse. Its a pretty std thing among most US guys to berate the illegal influx, but otoh that influx is what keeps most places in CA ticking and more often than not, these ppl are hard workers who follow the law and just work.
KarnaOnce the PAK FA et al come, the EF will decidedly be yesterdays a/c. I have significant doubts on the XXJ being in the PAK FA class unless the PRC ties up with a strategic partner. Similarly, despite recent reports, the chances of a new MiG emerging -and being equivalent to a F22/JSF in LO tech etc, are low at best.
KarnaCan we slay the dragon of Cope India once and for all?
The exercise saw both the IAF and USAF play with gloves but exchange a few hard knocks. The only conclusive things were:
1. IAF pilots were deemed to be highly skilled and as well trained as their USAF counterparts.
2. Some flew more than their F15 flying peers, averaging around 300 hours annually
3. The IAF’s policy of training its pilots by flying them against “full up” a/c and best aircrew was deemed better than the USAF policy of simulating downgraded opfor red force whilst training.
4.Russian equipment, used properly, is quite potent and not junk.
None of the above is earthshattering. Almost everyone who has followed the IAF or other AF’s which have used their resources innovatively can testify to points 1-4.
It may be true that the USAF initially understimated the IAF and then had to ante up midway the exercise as reports suggest.
So what.
The IAF itself underestimated the Armee De l’ Air some time back and then fielded its BVR B team- Mirages with oldest gen RDM’s and SARH 530D’s against French Mirage 2000’s equipped with RDI’s…only to scramble and change tactics midway after the BVR battle turned ugly.
Everybody learns.
Apart from that- it is hyperbole to suggest that Sukhoi K’s or upgraded MiG21 Bis’s are better than F-15’s or that the USAF is now on the verge of losing its superiority- hey, what about all them AWACS, C3I and round the clock strike ability (JDAM’s/ Cruise Missiles..)
IMHO, Cope India was good for the IAF- it showed what they can do- and the USAF- it gave them new playmates to exercise with.
Apart from that, the push for the F22 etc is political hyperbole.
KarnaDepends, if you compare it to the JSF and F22, then it surely is obsolete in terms of LO technology. Otherwise, like most other 4th gen a/c, it can be updated throughout in terms of avionics.
Captor will be updated with AESA- the AMSAR, TVC may make an appearance on the EJ powerplants…
But it will never be a “stealth a/c” and in that sense it will be obsolete.
Then again it wasnt designed for the same and the above would be akin to flogging a chimp for not being an orangutan, if you get my drift.
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