KarnaRupak, you obviously don’t know the answers so I’ll stop asking you.
From Jai’s DefenseNews post the Indian air force wants a major new fighter deal for 125 new light fighters. The choices are the US F-16, Swedish Gripen and French Mirage 2000-5. The likely choice will be the Mirage 2000-5. This deal is estimated to cost over 5 billion dollars. From market prices this deal will probably cost much more than 5 billion dollars, maybe close to 10 billion dollars with the tech transfer and licensing. With licensed manufacturing this deal will take many years to complete, maybe more than 10 years because India will take years to learn how to manufacture the Mirage 2000-5.
In terms of both money and time, this deal is bad news for the LCA. The Indian air force is eager to spend so much on buying 125 foreign light fighters because the Indian air force has no confidence in the LCA.
Read this Indian newspaper article below:
The Statesman (India): Editorial: IAF and LCA.
348 words
26 June 2004
The Statesman
EnglishWhy not clear the air? The air force is contemplating halving its initial order for indigenous Light Combat Aircraft. Reports, significantly, have not been ‘clarified’ by the MoD and point to the IAF persisting with a wait-and-watch policy. The impact of a reduced order will be severe both in terms of money and programming. A limited production run will not permit economies of scale to come into play and prevent ironing out the creases that mark a new project. Worse, it will send out a signal that the aircraft is not quite what it is being cranked up to be. That is the crux of the matter: a reduced order and claims that the LCA even has export potential add up to a bit of a mismatch. The IAF must not be forced to accept a plane of inferior quality simply because it is produced at home. Yet it must be totally convinced on that score, and not succumb to temptation from abroad.
The track record will confirm that major players in the military aviation business come up with attractive offers whenever threatened by a new competitor. Over many years that the LCA has taken to reach its present status there has been much talk, but little by way of genuine support from the IAF. Possibly because if it got too involved in the development it may forfeit its options. What is necessary is a comprehensive evaluation of the project and its relevance to the IAF’s operations. There would be little use repeating the MBT Arjun model – limited to saving face. The production line is yet to be established and time for hard decisions is fast approaching. Like the MBT, the LCA development has already generated valuable spin-off, so it has not been a waste. Yet when taking that hard decision it is necessary to remember that the LCA may not have encountered such turbulence had the HF-24 Marut programme not been abandoned just when it approached fruition. That chapter of history should not repeat itself.
I am afraid an editorial from some anonymous chap simply does not quite cut it. Do you have an actual cite by the IAF talking of “cutting the orders”?
Similarly the other data in the article is clearly false. There is talk of no production line for the MBT having been established. Whereas it is clearly known- as many articles reiterate- that Avadi now has 4 production lines – one for the Arjun, another for the T72, another for the T72 Upg program and one for the T90S assembly to be followed by license production.
Secondly that the “IAF has no confidence in the LCA” is yet another piece of myth making which you conveniently attempt to slip in. I would be interested to know whether you have actually interacted with any IAF pilots in recent times or even had any access to the LCA program whatsoever to make that garrulous assertion. The IAF is cogniscant of prior delays in the LCA program and has factored those in to its induction matrix, that does not- as fervently as you hope though- translate into “the IAF has no confidence in the LCA”.
As to your “India will take years to learn how to make the LCA”- that clearly represents your hopes rather than reality.
If India can gear up to make MKI’s within the span of a couple of years of receiving design and production data, the Mirage is hardly any greater challenge.
As far as Rupak is concerned, he has already laid out the answers for you. That the IAF wishes to move towards a more than 5o sq force and the LCA will continue to have relevance. You may do a dance and continue to fervently hope that the LCA may be cancelled etc, but I am afraid your wishes may not translate into reality by far. What does constantly amuse me is though the efforts you and your cohorts like Yahoo make in picking up any random piece of information and then constructing castles in the air based upon the same, whilst at the same discounting every piece of information that says different.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/261551.cms
IAF’s SU-30MKI set for maritime role
TIMES NEWS NETWORK[ SATURDAY, NOVEMBER 01, 2003 06:25:49 AM ]
NEW DELHI: Unleashing more synergy with the Navy, the Air Force is ready for a maritime role with its latest acquisitions — SU-30MKI. The first two upgraded versions of the aircraft are ready for their conversion to maritime role. The IAF has already inducted 30 of the two variants of the SU-30.
The conversion of the multi-role fighter will help the Navy replace its ageing Sea Harrier fighters — the maritime Jaguars are due for upgradation. The new variants of the SU-30MKI have more advanced software and conversion to maritime role was just a matter of training of flying long distance over the seas in coordination with the Navy, Air chief S Krishnaswamy told reporters after a conference of the IAF’s top commanders here.
He denied reports of the IAF being opposed to the appointment of a chief of defence staff (CDS), saying: ”It is the government’s prerogative to decide on when and who to choose for CDS.” Affirming that the IAF was fully supportive of the DRDO ventures, the air chief said his force would induct indigenous surface-to-air Akash missile, whose final trials are slated to be held within the next two months.
On the LCA, Krishnaswamy said the programme was on schedule and the aircraft will be inducted into the IAF by 2007-08, adding the evaluation committee of the project was meeting next week in which efforts will be made to accelerate the project. He said the development of the indigenous Kaveri fighter engine was progressing well.
And as noted below the Mirages will fill the gap, hardly supplant the LCA.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/37065950.cms
IAF Mirages modified for air to air refuelling
PTI[ MONDAY, FEBRUARY 10, 2003 03:41:35 PM ]
NEW DELHI : The Indian Air Force has modified its frontline French-supplied Mirage 2000 multi role warplanes for air-to-air refuelling with the expected delivery of its first air tanker IL-78 from Uzbekistan by the end of this month, Air Chief S Krishnaswamy said here on Monday.
“Over the past two months we have acquired the refuelling adaptors and fitted them on the Mirages”, he told reporters after a wide-ranging meeting with his French counterpart Gen Richard Wolfztynski.
Describing the ongoing first ever joint Indo-French fighter exercises as an “exercise in sharing of knowledge and expertise”, the Air chief said that IAF fighter formations would benefit immensely from the experience of the French fliers.
He said air-to-air refuelling modifications had not only been carried out in Mirages, but on other IAF frontline warplanes like Jaguars as well as Mig-29 and Mig-27’s.
On the French proposal for sale of 130 latest Mirage 2000-variants to boost IAF’s frontline squadron strength to fill the gap till the induction of country’s indigenous LCA, Krishnaswamy said the choice of acquisition of fighters was the domain of the government.
At the same time, he said the country’s defence planners had to keep in mind that IAF had an inventory which was manageable. “Everytime we get a fighter variant, it means extra expenditure on training and logistics”.
And as to the IAF’s commitment
March 15, 2004 – 02:34
Need to promote indigenous systems: Air ChiefPTI
Pokhran (Rajasthan):As India negotiates foreign-made air defence systems, Air Chief Marshall S Krishnaswamy today came out strongly in favour of developing indigenous systems to meet the country’s needs.
‘We have to promote indigenously-developed planes and systems though they may take time,’ he told reporters after the rIndian Air Force’s largest-ever firepower display at Pokhran Air to Ground weapons firing range here.
His remarks came close on the heels of India and Israel signing the deal for AWACS system supply and ahead of Indo-British accord on purchase of Advanced Jet Trainers. He said although the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) project was running behind schedule, he was hopeful that the first planes would be inducted by 2007-08.
‘The project is progressing, though slowly, and the testing is being done in phases. It is technically very complex but we are totally committed to the LCA.
‘The Kaveri engines for the planes are in the final stage of development and even if they are not ready on time, we can use US-made engines,’ the Air Chief said adding it was more difficult to develop engines than aircraft.
About the Advanced Jet Trainers (AJT) being developed indigenously, he said there was ‘no apprehension’ and they would be inducted into the Air Force in ‘due time’.
Krishnaswamy said the first of these aircraft were likely to be inducted into the Air Force in two years. ‘The deal will be signed soon – it is not a question of if but when,’ he said.
KarnaKarna
EL-OP’s TISAS also widely available on T-72s under the upgrade program.
Thats the DrawaT plus Elop TI , the TISAS news imho referred to the BMP’s again, which were cleared at the same time as the T72 deal.
Reports spoke of some 550 odd units- 250 T-72’s and some 300 BMP’s.
KarnaThe news on the BMP-2 upgrades is partially correct. The 900 BMPs being upgraded are the newest hulls delivered in since 1992/93. Almost all these BMPs are with the armoured divisions. The engine upgrades have already been underway at depot level since May this year. The remaining BMP-1 and BMP-2 (some 2,000 more) will undergo partial or no upgrade. The BMP-1s will be discarded within this plan period and hopefully be replaced by the Abhay from 2007 onwards.
Rupak, you noticed something else?
They are talking of the TISAS- which is a combo FCS and imager.
KarnaLate 2004 or early 2005 ?
that the first time I see a deadline for this deal.Hope Dassault will win it.
They are the front runners by far. I think Serge Dassault et al can buy new villa’s on the Riviera.
KarnaMargalla Electronics
– http://depo.org.pk/products/me/index.htm
Margalla ElectronicsMilitary Vehicles Research and development Establishment (MVRDE)
– http://depo.org.pk/products/mvrde/index.htm
Military Vehicles Research and development Establishment (MVRDE)Pakistan Aeronautical Complex
– http://depo.org.pk/products/pac/index.htm
Pakistan Aeronautical ComplexPakistan Navy Dockyard
– http://depo.org.pk/products/pndk/index.htm
Pakistan Navy DockyardPakistan Ordinance Factory
– http://depo.org.pk/products/pof/index.htm
Pakistan Ordinance Factory
Cant open any of the links- anyone else with problems?
And iirc PAK doesnt make any IRST’s. Some of the upgraded Mirages have fixed direction FLIR’s though supplied by Sagem. The RWR’s – i know about, they are of Chinese origin and license produced by PAF Kamra- another division iirc assembles the Grifo’s from Finnmeccanica.
Probably a server error for the above links?
Karnahttp://www.deccanherald.com/deccanherald/mar072004/n9.asp
Sunday, March 07, 2004
Deccan Herald » National » Full Story
——————————————————————————–
Three Howitzer gun makers’ systems need further testing
Price negotiations for the turret system to be used in main battle tanks will be completed shortly.
NEW DELHI, DHNS:
Three howitzer gun makers from Israel, Sweden and South Africa confirmed their participation in a further “re-evaluation” of their systems in a bid to bag an Indian army contract for 400 guns.
The “re-evaluation” in summer, will be taken by Bengt Lenkel of SWS Defence AB of Sweden, Soltam of Israel and South Africa’s Denel.
The proposed testing follows three months of rigorous trials in Pokhran in Rajasthan that ended last September, a year after an earlier round the previous year in which none of the contenders are believed to have suitably met the Indian army’s requisite general staff qualitative requirements (GSQR).
India plans on buying up to 180 howitzers outright from one of the three manufacturers as part of its plans to standardise artillery requirements by 2020-25 and building the remaining 220 locally under licence. This includes a mix of towed howitzers, wheeled 155mm/52 calibre self-propelled howitzers (SPH) and the Bhim — tracked SPH.
Military sources, meanwhile, said the India-South African Bhim price negotiation committee (PNC) to finalise the price for Denel Ordnance’s turret system that has been successfully mated with the chassis of the locally developed Arjun main battle tank (MBT), was likely to be completed by March 31.
Price differences of around Rs 2-3 crore for the system, that was successfully tested six years ago, with Denel reportedly demanding Rs 12-13 core per turret, had delayed the PNC.
India initially wants 124 pieces of the SPH’s, a figure that corresponds with an equal number of Arjuns that have been sanctioned in the late 1990’s but are yet to be built at the Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) at Avadi, Chennai. The Field Artillery Rationalisation Plan envisages another 400-500 SPH’s being produced jointly by Denel and Bharat Earth Movers Limited (BEML), Bangalore.
But Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) officials at the February Defexpo 2004 in Delhi claimed that the BEML unit at Kolar in Karnataka was taking additional orders for the Arjun.
“The Arjun MBT programme is separate from Bhim,” a senior scientist from the Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment (CVRDE) at Avadi said. He also confirmed that around 155 MTU 838 Ka-ka-510 engines had already been imported from Germany for Arjun for around Rs 3-4 core each.
BEML’s Kolar unit, had built three pre-production Arjuns in 1993 and DRDO officials said it would open a separate assembly line for its chassis in addition to ordering an unspecified number of German engines for it.
Other DRDO sources claimed the Arjun, with around 50 per cent imported components would cost upwards of Rs 15 core apiece, some 50 per cent more than the price India paid for 310 Russian T 90s three years ago.
Note 50% figure, this comprises of powerpack- engine and transmission, thermal imager and finally the gun control system.
The latest news is that Indian units are apparently in the certification stage and hence the figure will drop to 20%.
http://www.123bharath.com/india-news/index.php?action=fullnews&id=7079
‘Arjun’ an excellent tank: Vij :
Tamilnadu, India > Chennai, Aug 7 : Describing the Main Battle Tank, ‘Arjun’, handed over to the Indian Army here today as having the attributes of an excellent tank, Chief of Army Staff Gen.N C Vij said it was better to have one’s own equipment instead of depending on imported ones which would ultimately choke up the supply lines.In an informal chat with reporters on the sidelines of the function at the Heavy Vehicles Factory at Avadi this afternoon, he said import content of the Arjun now around 50 per cent would come down to the affordable level of 20 per cent soon.
“Faster it is done, better it is”, he said adding much depended on the accelerated production of more Arjun tanks.
Vij said the five Arjun tanks, now handed over to the Indian Army, would soon have a ‘user field trials’. In terms of cost, Arjun was slightly more than the T-90, rolled out early this year from HVF, here. The Army would have a judicious mix of T-72, T-90 and Arjun Tanks, he said.
The Chief of Army Staff said ‘we cannot develop such an advanced weapon system without the help and cooperation of the defence forces’.
Read Latest Headlines from Tamilnadu, India
Note that the IA was chary about depending on too many suppliers.
The engine and thermal imager will remain “foreign”, but the transmission and other items are already in certification trials.
KarnaI will be posting a lot of articles – some dated but still relevant and which have not been noted in this thread. But all of a relatively recent vintage.
Thursday April 15, 7:30 PM
Indian Army to induct modern hardware
By From Indo-Asian News Service
New Delhi, Apr 15 (IANS) The Indian Army will soon induct an array of sophisticated equipment, ranging from hi-tech helmets to bulletproof jackets, to boost its ability to wage counter-insurgency operations in Jammu and Kashmir and the northeast.
Plans to induct the equipment were discussed Thursday at the bi-annual Army Commanders Conference, with the heads of regional commands and various arms of the million-strong force outlining their needs for the battlefield of the future.
Maj. Gen. Deepak Samanwar, additional director general (public information), told reporters the army would soon acquire new “ballistic helmets”, over 350,000 bullet-proof jackets, night vision devices and improved tents.
While the new helmets would be provided to the entire force, troops engaged in counter-insurgency operations would get special versions equipped with radio sets and night vision sights, he said.
The army will soon conduct field trials of helmets supplied by various foreign firms to select one for its soldiers.
A total of 30 snow scooters would be inducted soon for the troops deployed on the Siachen glacier, the world’s coldest and highest battlefield. The army currently has over 100 scooters in the region.
“The commanders also discussed the need for high mobility vehicles for desert and strike formations. These will be 6×6 vehicles and will be locally procured,” Samanwar said.
To make up for a 40 percent deficiency in night vision devices, the state-owned Bharat Electronics Ltd will supply some 600 devices a year, he said.
The army chief, Gen. N.C. Vij, is chairing the four-day commanders’ conference. The chiefs of the five regional commands, the army training command, principal staff officers at army headquarters and the heads of the army’s various arms are attending it.
Samanwar said the army was taking steps to prevent accidents at its ammunition dumps, which had been hit by a series of blasts in the past few years that resulted in the loss of ordnance worth millions of rupees.
“By 2006, all the ammunition will be stored under cover. A majority of accommodation for storing the ammunition has been completed and we have put in place security and fire fighting systems at the ammunition dumps,” he said.
The commanders’ conference has also been discussing a new war doctrine, which revolves around the use of “integrated battle groups” with elements of the army, navy and air force that can be rapidly deployed in the event of hostilities.
Reports have suggested the doctrine would be built about eight rapidly deployable battle groups.
The doctrine would mark a radical change from the army’s current strategy of using three strike formations for war. These formations can take up to a month to be deployed.
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Karnahttp://www.drdo.com/pub/techfocus/feb04/explosive.htm
Explosive Reactive Armour
DRDO has mastered varieties of techniques in the areas of propellants, high explosives, pyrotechnics, polymers, etc. Development of ERA was altogether a new area, a challenging task. DRDO has accomplished this task successfully with totally indigenous efforts. This has placed DRDO on the world map of armour developers, a note of which has been taken by pioneer institutes like RAFAEL of Israel, Euromissile of France, etc.
Explosive Reactive Armour (ERA) is an add-on armour designed to offer additional protection to tanks against shaped charge warheads of modern antitank guided missiles (ATGMs). Over the last two decades, DRDO has developed expertise in this vital technology and has a large database of various designs of ERA.
Responding to user requirements of providing additional protection to tank, DRDO has developed an ERA system, which effectively reduces penetration of Milan 2 shaped charge warhead to the extent of 70 per cent.
The ERA developed by DRDO is a sandwich of explosive and metal plates. The panels of ERA are assembled in metallic containers. When the jet of a shaped charge warhead hits ERA panel, explosive in it detonates. As a result, the plates are accelerated and start moving outward in normal direction. The moving plates and the detonaters render the jet ineffective which loses its penetration capability.
Based on RDX, a special type of sheet explosive has also been developed for ERA.This sheet explosive is waterproof. It is not cap sensitive and also quite insensitive to frition, impact and heat. However, it gets initiated by a shaped-charge jet.
The ERA technology has met all the requirements of the user and was accepted for introduction into the Indian Army. The production of ERA panels has commenced in the Ordnance factories.
Salient Features
Effectively reduces the penetration of warheads of modern ATGMs
Immune to detonation against small arms ammunition and artillery shell fragments
No sympathetic detonation of neighbouring panels when one panel explodes
Minimum collateral damage
The weight penalty is kept to the minimum about 1.5 ton per tank
No initiation by arc welding or by accidental drops
Tank mobility and manoeuvrability not compromisis
Functions with equal efficiency even after deep fording by the tank
Operational temperature ranges from 20 oC to +55 oC
The technology is totally indigenous, possesses high contemporary innovation element and has made the nation self-reliant in this vital field of military importance. It has saved foreign exchange by eliminating the necessity to import of this technology (estimated cost of ERA kit for one tank in foreign countries is around Rs 48 lakhs), and even has export potential. Being indigenous, the technology can be modified/upgraded with some efforts to meet similar other and futuristic requirements.
KarnaKarnaHi Indian , dude first the reactor part , All the latest US and Russian subs (virginia, yasen, borey), not sure of the western counries though , are going to be equipped with a ‘High density mono block reactor” ,which dosent require refulling through out subs life extimated to be 30 yrs , so If Arun_s is to be believed that sealed reactor which dosent require refulling can be sold with IAEA approval , then these reactor could be the same Mono Block ones, and hence outside IAEA preview.
About the article authenticity , dude you are mature enough to know that all the stuff mentioned in the article need not and will not be 100 percent correct , more so if one goes and disects individual word and statement , I am not aware of Sengupt’s background , but if one goes by the sum of his article so far (on P-15A and ATV) it looks quite resonable , Like for example its not the first time we are reading that the ATV is based on yasen design, it came first from some russian source, also India is leasing the Akula-2( Akula-2 or improved Akula is still a dispute or unconfirmed) for training , so any reactor built by India will be atleast as good as the Akula-2 and will have lots of features borrowed from the same , an operational indian ATV cannot be expected to be some what inferior to the one on which Indian submariners will be trained on.
In the end I would say go by the sum of the article and not individual lines and paragraph , I think its a praise worthy effort on Sengupta’s part to revel something on ATV , when we know its a top secret project , This person definately deserves kudos for doing the work.
Austin since you dont know about Sengupta’s background let me be quite honest. Guy is a total shameless b@stard who plagiarizes openly and repeatedly.
In the recent past he has flicked Rupaks entire article on the IAF and published it under his own name for Vayu and ADF. Mind you- he didnt even change a comma! When I read it I was like- “wow, this guy really really really deserves to get a lawsuit”…
He has taken Kapil C’s pics w/o permission for his articles.
He has plagiarized Nitin’s article on T72’s for Farce.
These are but a few of his “achievements”.
Sawhney himself is an unredeemable alcoholic- there are tales about him that would make your head spin.
Net, what Sengupta does is get some “info”, mix it with other ppls original work and pass it off for his own.
He does it for the moolah plain and simple. He deserves no kudos but a big boot up his backside for not even giving credit where it is due. And another big boot for his apathetic laziness.
Having said that- some stuff in the above article will be credible, most wont. Parsing one from the other will be difficult if not well nigh impossible.
Like You said- there is enough info between the lines and the sub appears credible. Some info- imho- is ludicrous, like the Russian reactors, more likely that the Indian ones are ready and Sengupta mixed up the above with russian coop in the civvie program.
I agree with part of the thrust of your post and appreciate *your* effort in typing out that post (who cant- the effort speaks for itself), but please dont attribute any altruistic motives to Sengupta- he is truly dishonest.
KarnaThe Japanese AESA was deemed not good enough by the Americans who evaluated it and hence the US preferred to stay with its own indigenous tech for the APG77 program. Now of course, the JSF’s radar has revamped the AESA of the 77 driving down production costs to boot.
KarnaWhatever. The facts speak for themselves – a quick google will throw up dozens of references to the economic conditions of the time and how things changed thereafter due to..the ..unique circumstances.
Now lest we drift off topic- do you have any *concrete* references to the PA using any of the methods described by Mavaustin or any reports of it updating its comms to modern day standards?
Karnamost of the comm equipment is of military specs, freq hopping radios and such. PAF and PA buys a lot of stuff thru 3rd party vendors as add-ons or upgrades and that way their cost is minimal and able to maintain secrecy about their systems.
Any links to back up the above? Given Pakistans extreme financial distress till Sept 11 and the “economic resurgence” thereafter, it seems unlikely that the PA could afford any high tech gizmo’s.
Of course, now, things may perhaps change for the better.
KarnaDoes not look very “60s” to me, or is it that anything Pakistani has to be inferior, hey Airpower!? 😀
Bigger MFD’s would have helped. The cockpit still appears very cluttered.
KarnaNevertheless, the T2 and the Ardiden/Shakti, have already been contracted for
T2?
The Ardiden will improve handling and payload ability even further. Should be good for the WSI ones.
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