There is no need to make comparisation with JF17. If you say that it has no Pakistani content then so be it. That plane is medium tech and no one says it can handle pretty much everything. But let us focus on a huge plane like MKI. Plane is designed by Russia. Weapons, radar, ejection seat, engines… All Russian. When we move towards the often used avionis part… Please tell me whih part is purely Indian and where it had no TOT, consultany or whatever? Look Israel provided most of the avionis. So did Thales. But there must be something in a huge plane with that many parts that we can say that they really added something they could not get anywhere else for that price/quality?

About LCA. I fully agree that it is not a paperplane. It is a pretty fine machine and compared to average plane not bad at all. But it is a long way from being a dangerous and operational plane. You need weapons, radar, power, numerical advantage etc etc. Please do not take it personal and keep posting cause it is intresting talking to you.

The MKIs for example exceeds anything in the Pakistani arsenal. They are flying and are being made in India. The LCA when it is out will be more than capable than any Pakistani fighter other than the Block 52+ F 16s.

LCA is hardly more then a plane in development. We have read the nice parameters decades ago, yet the development is not finished and you are already promoting it. It is heavier then planned and underpowered even by using a foreign engine. Since when is operational? I surely missed that. MKI is assembled and not made in India. It needs to be seen how well it performes in real combat. I am not that convinced that it is superb compared to its opponents. Somehow you turn everything into your position but the reality is a bit different.

There is no need to jump into a is better then anything else while you have no info but personal opinions.

I do not think that more and more make IAF better. It is not that big yet. It has to remove the outdated planes and get better trainer aircraft. The next decade will be induction time. A long learning curve cause whatever they buy as MRCA, it will need time to get it and to master it.

About being something to be taken serious… Well, There are three big players in that area and all three have nukes and decent weapons. There is not much to achieve anymore. India can buy 1000 MKI’s and still stay the same. I wonder how they will keep them in the air cause getting Russian planes in one… Maintenance is two.

They started with overhaling Mirages, Mig19 derivatives (J6/A5) and assembling Saab Safari…

They improved Safari to Super Mushaq

They teamed with China and “designed” K8

And now probably same with JF17 cause China did not wanted it and CAC already builded J10…

The future will be surely not a plane cause that is many bridges to far but surely some parts…

Thanks for posting this pic Farooq.
I must add that I cant remember seeing this pic before, and neither have I read Alan Warnes’s latest book. Yet I have seen similar pics before and would post the link whenever I come across again.

On another note, I do agree with what 21 Ankush said that It is impossible to gain such massive experience in the various fields that are required to design a fighter- from structures, systems, aerodynamics, flight control laws, to integration, detail design, etc. without having had several Pakistani institutions actively working with the Chinese on the program from the initial stages. What I would like to add, however, is that every country has to start somewhere. As I stated before that Pakistan has been involved in this programme from its inception and more so lately (someone else mentioned K-8 programme too). What PAC et al. are capable of doing right now, for example integration of weapons is taking place in Pakistan, was probably inconceivable a few years back. But it is happening now and we can safely assume that more would come on line as they gain expertise in other fields. I have always thought that Pakistanis appear to be well aware of their own limitations, and hence are trying to learn (from someone who is willing to teach them) at a gradual pace rather than taking on something more than they could chew. Does this mean that Pakistan could have a totally independent and self-sufficient aviation industry over next couple of decades? My personal opinion would be NO. Because Pakistan lacks the sources for such an industry, its moving at an extremely fast pace and Pakistan would always play catch up, and future aviation industry would be a lot more inter-dependent than what it is at the moment. Knowing their own limitations, I think Pakistanis would concentrate on certain aspects of aviation industry and try to be good at those.

I think the Russians do not want another J11. So what exactly is TOT if raw material is produced in Russia. Engines, ejection seat comes from Russia. Same goes for components like IRST or, canopy etc. I think that by having Russians control over every proces it keeps India out of growing mode. I would not go for outsourcing cause India has the manpower, engineering power and finance (let us forget the numbers of planes) to do it. And these kind of full inhouse (yet sometimes inefficient) actions are contributing towards a better aviation industry.

FORCE October 2009
http://www.forceindia.net

‘Outsourcing is a Reasonably New Area for Us’
General Manager, Aircraft Manufacturing Division, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, Nasik, V. Balakrishnan

Can you give us an overview of the Su-30MKI manufacturing process in Nasik?

The contract for Su-30 was first signed in 1996 with Russia. Subsequently, there were talks about license production, which is when HAL came into the picture. HAL has been in dialogue with Russia since 1998. In 2000, the Inter-Government Agreement and general contract was signed. In December 2001, the bifurcation of responsibilities between the Indian and the Russian side took place, implying that both sides decided on the documents that would be given to us, which side would do how much tooling and testing and so on. HAL also decided on the minimum number of aircraft needed to be made by it to have a cost-effective production line. Various figures were discussed and till we finally agreed on an appropriate number. Consequently, in March 2002, HAL submitted its project report to the government.

What is meant by establishing the Su-30MKI production line?

Five HAL factories were nominated for the Su-30MKI production. In Nasik, we make the airframe structure and all electrical items and various assemblies made elsewhere are brought here for final integration of the aircraft.After this, flight-testing is done here before the aircraft is given to the customer. At the Koraput HAL plant, we make the AL-31FP engines for the aircraft. In Hyderabad, HAL makes the radar and radio equipment. In Lucknow, all systems are made, which includes mechanical and electrical instruments (looms), as well as pumps and oxygen systems. The Navigational and Attack Complex, Korwa, HAL makes all navigational systems, which includes optical laser systems. Hence, the Nasik factory with the strength of about 5,500 people does the design and manufacturing. In addition, there are about 30 Russian consultants. The Nasik HAL comprises three divisions: the Aircraft Manufacturing Division (AMD), the Aircraft Overhauling Division (AOD) and Aircraft Upgrades Research and Development Centre (AURDC).

What is meant by designing Su-30MKI here?

As the aircraft is the licensed-production, we have to maintain the documentation including designs, drawing and specifications. Liaison work is also important as both sides have to agree on the exact specification of parts which are being made here.

Does the raw material for Su-30MKI come from Russia?

Yes, the kits come from Russia which includes 100 per cent raw material, casing and forgings, standard parts and bought-out ready material like bearings, connectors, switches, circuit-breakers and so on. These parts, though small are not economical enough to be made here. While in the earlier Russian aircraft, we were making nuts and bolts here, in the case of Su-30MKI, the Russians insisted that everything come from there, including readymade articles for which license has not been transferred. These include undercarriage and the ejection seats. This decision is based on cost-effective analysis and time frames. But there are still nearly 40,000 parts like brackets, panels and major structural frames, spars, longerons, wings, control surfaces and fins that are made here.

Where exactly are the Russians assisting in the project?

They come in at various stages of the project. For example, they help during the testing of the fuel pumps, radars and the final flight testing. Su-30MKI has seven profiles for system testing where the Russians are involved intimately. Painting of the aircraft done at the flight hangar is another critical area. They are also there during the final assembly of the aircraft as well in the earlier stages when sub-assemblies are manufactured. In short, the Russians are there in a supervisory capacity at each stage, for transfer of technology. This is part of the license agreement and is called ‘defence of their technology processes’. This means that it is their responsibility to ensure that all the licensed items that they have transferred to us can be produced here to the required specifications.

Does the radar come directly from Russia?

No, initially N011 radar of Su-30MKI used to come from Russia, but once the license was transferred to HAL, it is now being manufactured in Hyderabad. Like the aircraft, the manufacture of the radar is also a phased process.

Can you explain the phases in which the aircraft is being manufactured?

The whole process of the aircraft manufacture is in four phases. In phase I (2004-2005) the aircraft was manufactured and tested in Russia before being flown to India. It was again tested here in Nasik and then painted before the aircraft was handed over to the Indian Air Force. In phase II (2005-2006) 100 per cent of the kits came from Russia. In Nasik AMD, it meant the kits for the entire fuselage, wings and the pipelines. Assembling the kits here took nine months before the aircraft rolled out of the production line. Phase III of the process involved making all items from raw materials except the fuselage. The materials manufactured here included the empennage, canards, wings and the air intake. These were manufactured under Russian supervision and the process took 30 months. The fuselage that came from Russia was in three parts: F1, F2 and F3 or the front, centre and rear fuselage. These parts were assembled here. Phase IV, which has just begun, will take a total of 36 months and will involve making the entire fuselage from the Russian supplied raw material. Indian manufacturers for raw material, like Midhani, can make some of the raw material to required specifications. Present contract for the Su-30MKI aircraft mentions raw material to be delivered by Russia and we will stick to the license agreement terms. Indigenous material will be used for making spares.

As the phases become time-consuming, will this affect the aircraft production rate?

No, this will not happen. For example, phase III which we entered in March this year was actually started in 2006. We are certain to meet our commitment of giving 140 aircraft to the customer by March 2015.

What are the technical highpoints of Su-30MKI?

Su-30MKI is a 4.5 generation aircraft with a twin engine and twin cockpit. This ensures that redundancy is taken care of. It has 12 weapon stations, which is a large number. It has a state of art engine with thrust vectoring capability. This makes the aircraft highly unstable with immense manoeuvre-capabilities. It has a high fuel-carrying capability and can undertake air to air refuelling. Its fuel tank design is special and is self-sealing. This means that if a bullet hits the wing, the fuel will come out of the tank slowly, instead of gushing out as is the case in other aircraft. The aircraft engine has single crystal blades which are capable of withstanding very high temperatures. Considering that the aircraft is huge and has to operate in hot conditions, and its twin engines have the 11,500kg thrust each, the single crystal blades ensure that the thrust remains optimum. The Russians have given this technology to us for the first time. Another thing about the aircraft is the extensive use of titanium for machining, forming, welding and chemical milling. Titanium is both light and strong as compared with aluminium used in the earlier Russian aircraft. Absorption of the Titanium technology is a complex process. Most of the work on titanium is done at high temperature to stabilise the metal and this process is called isothermal forming. There is a need for special tools and jigs for the cutting, welding and machining of titanium.

Another unique feature of this aircraft manufacture is its rotables. It has sturdy locks, made of titanium, which are very complex. For example, when the undercarriage of the aircraft comes down, it is held firmly by down-locks which are manufactured here. Similarly, there are certain hydro-pneumatic valves which are complicated and are made here. The spars (members that hold heavy loads like wings) in this aircraft are huge and are complex structures to make.
A very interesting aspect of this aircraft-building is that nearly 25 per cent of the aircraft components have been outsourced by us. About 10,000 parts of the aircraft are being made by Indian companies and are being supplied to HAL Nasik. We give them the raw material and the designs, after which we inspect their products before accepting them. In a matter of speaking, we ensure quality control of the outsourced components. This helps us to concentrate on the assembly aspect of the parts here at AMD, which is a very critical process. As mentioned earlier, both we and the Russians, ensure the quality control of the manufacturing here.

Considering that the aircraft uses a lot of titanium, does this affect its stealth capabilities?

Stealth is a different issue altogether. This involves two things. First, the rays that come to the aircraft should get deflected so as not to send the signal back to the source. This is achieved by the geometry of the aircraft which ensures maximum deflection and hence stealth. The other issue is about the aircraft radar itself that should not emit unnecessary signals. Both these issues have been taken care of adequately in this aircraft.

What is the reason that in a given time frame, more aircraft can be made in Russia than at HAL?

This depends upon the number of machinery, jigs and fixtures that one has. The other aspect is about technology absorption. Considering that the Russians have been making aircraft of various kinds for so many years, their infrastructure, facilities and technology absorption processes are better than what can be achieved at HAL. For example, if the Russians are making about 1,400 aircraft and HAL is to make much lesser number in 100s, the disparity in infrastructure between the two places will be glaring. Moreover, given their experience, they have more partners to outsource work. As much as 70 per cent of their aircraft components would be outsourced in comparison to about 25 per cent that HAL is doing for the Su-30MKI. Earlier, HAL used to make 100 per cent components for the MiGs. Thus, outsourcing is a reasonably new area for us.

Which other companies are contributing components to Su-30MKI?

Thales of France has given the multi-functional display and stand-by instruments like the visual omni-range instrument landing system. The GPS in the aircraft comes from Israel. The radar warning receiver has been designed by DARE in Bangalore and is being produced by BEL. These systems are being sent to Korwa HAL from where we receive them.

not flaming, but how could they get design experience when the Chinese side was totally responsible for that part of the project ? assembly and manufacture experience they’ll get transferred from the Chinese, but design knowledge cannot be gained without participating in it.

the JF-17 would suffice in roles that replace the Mirage-3 and -5 and the A-5, but there is one distinct advantage in the J-10’s favour- more payload. for a bigger A2G loadout, it could still carry self-defence missiles. on that note, how mature is the J-10’s A2G strike capability right now ? what weapons does it use in this role ?

I think that getting full TOT, involved in engineering and management showed that PAF did something new in this field. As AFM magazine wrote… It is truly the first fighterjet designed by an airforce. If you read some historical notes then you would know that Mushaf Ali Mir did had serious involvement. If PAF gets something for paying developments costs then you are terrible wrong. In essence they did the same as India. The difference is that China hosted it while India wanted to do it all alone. Now without turning it into a battle… PAF did get a good plane for what they wanted (a cheap replacement for their decades old A5/Mig21 derivatives/Mirages3/5) and they can change or improve cause they will get the permission to do it and the knowledge if they need assistance. If the Pakistani did nothing then why so much attention in testing and evaluating it again in Pakistan? And you should know that they will add western avionics/radar/weapons/ifr in Pakistan and not in China. So there is a lot more then the usual idea that they paid only… I hope you do get that.

I think there is more that needs to be compared then the emitter and receiver modules. It is like telling that Russian and American radar are copies by only looking at the nosecones of both fighterjets. Most important parts are the electronics and software and there is no way we can tell what they have. Surely the Chinese use the tested methods cause why invent a bad one while you can see and copy a tested and operational item? You can skip several steps and it is surley cheaper.