Insigthey need Typhoons in order to take back Gwadar from Pakistan.
They also need Typhoons against Bulgaria. Very unlikely threat but you never know!
.What is behind J-7 hotdog? A poster that makes fun of the Chinese Mig21 (J7) by calling it a hotdog. That same plane is doing 4 decades service with the Indian Airforce. Both the Mig21 and its derivatives have shown impressive records. Even these days the planes is a remarkable one. Anyway back to the topic. It beats me why someone should see the reasons of buying Typhoons by Oman should be relates to Bulgaria or Pakistani harbour called Gwadar. I have seen several posters moving towards good posting but unfortunately some do not follow. I have read Oman buys Insas. Insas is produced by India. I see no reason making strange remarks about that. I hope our friend here moves towards related and informative postings and not the usual anti Pakistan remark.
InsigIf nations like Holland and Belgium each had 200+ f16’s while not near to anything hostile… I think Oman is in a volatile arena. Just a few would not do much but I think it will be a warning to Iran. If Iran gets both sides of the Hormouz then no one can export anything.
InsigI do not think that it is stealing. Probably China did not want to pay more cause they paid for TOT for the former. With that they moved on while Russia wants to cash at every plane. Who doesn’t. India knows how prices go up (Ghorskov) without understanding why. China is not going to accept that.
But China is not a small nation, it has capabilites to absorb faster then anyone. No wonder that after that the Chinese moved away from big orders. Only engines are needed so it is pretty much an independent production. Is it stealing? I have a different opinion. I think they do not depend on Russia otherwise they would have gone for PAKFA. And if Russia really cared it would have stopped engines (AL31 AND RD33) or other parts floating to China. Quadbike has an intresting source… Pogosan. Well, to be honest I would not have cared if mr Putin told it on national television. Last time I heard him talking about not willing to provide China RD33 cause it was going to be transferred to Pakistan was removed quickly after Putin’s plane landed in Moscow. They can either sell the parts China is not able to produce or expect that they can sell nothing. India can start anything but it is just simple economics.
InsigComparing specs is one thing, but last time I checked Gripen was in service with several nations and integrated with several AMM and AGM missiles and has an advanced radar.
Specs on paper are one thing, but reality is very different.
I could right a spec sheet for a plane and post it on the internet. Does not mean I will have a F-22 beater in my air force anytime soon….
Ultimately, if Gripen and LCA were similar India would have no need for a MRCA contest.
If we are being honest…..
Surely paper is not exactly the same as reality but honestly I would give the LCA a shot. It is impossible that it would be less efficient (cost versus quality). And we need to see how well these planes (Gripen) do in Indian climate. Like JF17 is optimized for PAF and Pakistani climate, LCA is optimized for India. And I bet Gripen is not doing superb in India, otherwise they would not have to show the NG in the near future. The Indians did find several planes not able to qualify. I see that as a sign which shows that parameters and adds are not the same as what you get.
MRCA is a long trip. We even have to see the next game before India selects.
InsigShame we cannot go for Israeli option for this, as they seem to have a nice variety of radars and AAMs ideal size for JF-17. As this market is off limits t us it puts the Europeans in a much stronger position.
In that case there would be even more little difference between LCA and JF17 ;)!
Abhimanyu says is perfectly. It would be probably only for the Mica. The rest could be done by the Chinese. If not now then within a few years. Only a lot cheaper. And why would they go for different systems if within 5 years they could get a bigger plane (FC20) with same parts? Seems to me that delaying is part of evolving.
InsigHmm, well my point was not to bring India into the debate at all, we know where that ends.
Back on topic:
What other options are available to the JF-17 team?
KLJ-7 w/SD-10 + Chinese systems
Grifo-S w/Derby + South African/Italian systemsIMHO, the first will be cheaper and less of a hassle than the second, but will still be fairly expensive..
Good questions. I think you gave the only options left. China having problems getting it and Pakistan having no cash. I think the second has the problems of integration. Plug and play is nice but never cheap. And with more nations involved you get delays.
I think it is sometimes impossible to keep these two seprated. JF17 and LCA are, even for crazy people like us, comparable. My impression is that FC20 will become the real block x and JF17 will move more slowly towards a newer block.
InsigI do not think it is problematic of LCA. Better to take some time en show good result then jumping into wishes of the political leaders. The latest developments of LCA is encouraging. The plane is evolving more then I personally had expected. It needs some time to become better but I think the IAF should show real commitment. I think by the time they add weapons and show some results in trainings there will be a move that is good. Let us wait. Keep the flame burning. 😉
InsigIndia voted against Iran for its Iran’s associated Nucler connection with Pakistan’s Scientist Dr. A Q Khan for providing Know how of Nuclear technology. Just because we have relationship with Iran, it doesn’t translate into strings of sanctions if India purchase certain things with US. Indo-US trade ties are growing rapidly and they are one of the largest trading partner, US isn’t jittery enough to risk its improving relationship with India by putting strings on its MRCA sale. India know it very well equally about US law and order associated with MRCA and hence it doesn’t fear sanctions similar to what has been imposed on Pakistani F-16 alongwith others.
Mr Zoom. You try to start flaming on the Pakistani thread and now here again. Mr Oppenheimer was burned in the electric chair just like his wife cause he probably was accused by delivering nuclear tech to the communists. I think mr oppenheimer was not happy with the abuse of power by those that neither did invent that not did understand how to use it. The USA is seen as the biggest democracy so if that happened there who cares about others? Whether mr Khan did this or that is still not clear for us. There are many books written about him and it is funny though that these books are always without his input or reaction. I think we should skip the baseless assumptions on him. I doubt that it is impossible to achieve anything with high tech without doing something illegally. You do not have the same time, cash, knowhow or labour so…
It as strange that India loved to support Iran but direct when US offered nuclear tech they went for voting against. Just ask the Iranians. They surely do understand how that feels. As you always start asking for evidence… Here extract from The Hindu… No one talks about Pakistan or Mr Khan… Maybe you should try to think less Pakistan centric.
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InsigSince according to you, Pakistan is producing JF-17 entirely, May I have some details about ancillary industry that is supposed to produce sub assemblies for JF-17?
😉 Nice indirect flaming attempt. I am not intrested in those cheap moves. Try to move beyond this and that which cannot be proved by anyone. I think it is a waste of time.
InsigThe bonhomie with the US has cooled a lot off in recent days….buying transport planes is a lot different from having 1/3rd of your fleet dependent on the current admin in the US…when there are better options. The C-17s,C-130J or P-8i are not as critical as fighter jets.
The EF looks more and more like the jet about to win the contract.
I think the US factor is not war related. If war starts you are on your own. And, knowing that both are nuclear armed, I doubt that it will last months. The US uses its weapons (deliveries) as a leverage to control political developments. I think that is the real issue. You see, USA asked at this moment India not to get energie from Iran. And In the past India voted against Iran to get nuclear deal. What will happen if India relies on 125 US MRCA’s? That is a lot of spare parts. I think that, unfortunately, the BJP has the right conclusion. You have all seen what happened with Venezuelan F16’s, Indonesian f16’s, Pakistani f16’s] and there are surely more examples. Surely you get nice tools but the price you pay is not only higher, the poitical consequences are negative. Before you know the US will start a colour revolution in your garden.
InsigWith reference to the last line, absolutely. AFM mentioned that by 2012, the first 40 JF-17s would be delivered, ready. My estimate is that follow on production will both depend on the state of the Pakistani economy at that point of time, plus a trade off between the capabilities China is willing to offer Pakistan and what the PAF has to accept. Given current data, the FC-20 is likely to be on ice as well. The PAF will rather look towards the United States, to transfer more Vipers or stay with what it currently has on order.
We have seen almost every project in the world related to high tech airplanes going over budget and surely delayed. As you said. Economy makes the difference. And with no electricity for the major part of the day you can write down that there is hardly an economy possible. JF17 was delayed 2 years. Atleast India has many offers but you must understand that both nations are an example of mismanagement. It is unrealistic to blaim just one side.
InsigIf Gripen has high US content (and seen as a problem) then why did they invite Lockheed?
InsigI need to see a poject that is on time and a real happy and satisfied customer. There are probably many reasons that stopped the deal with the French avionics. We are talking about 50-100 birds. It is not about 5-10 engines but the whole deal. Do not forget that besides these systems the Pakistani have tp produce the entire jet in Pakistan. I think it will ahve some more troubles before we see finally a block 2.
InsigWe are not disagreeing…domestic products cannot improve if there is no support from the end users. The relationship is pretty spoiled between the Indian armed forces and the DRDO. Watch the circus over the Arjun. The DRDO made mistakes with the tank,the army got pissed off showed them the middle finger and ordered massive amounts of T-90’s. Today the Arjun is in a much better but the middled finger from the armed forces still remains up.
I see. I think indeed we share common view. I was suprised that even after testing the decision makers went for import. Such a shame. It is disrespecting all those people that worked hard. It is disrespecting the tax payers. And you throw out your investment cause you throw away labour and spinoff products. And what will the import bring? They won’t use it against China (Himalaya) cause I doubt thy will go for huge tank war. Neither will they have significant new advantage in western front cause they have already bigger number and better quality in everything.
InsigI totally agree with what India should be doing…but when the forces are pampered with huge budgets a slightly inferior domestic product looks unpalatable. And the domestic product will never rise to the level of the imported product if the forces don’t accept them and if the defense industry is owned by the useless government.
The Pakistani force is much more streamlined than the IAF. Which other nation will operate/operates….Russian/French/British/Indian/(American/Swedish If MRCA chosen) jets at the same time?
I disagree with inferior products as a disadvantage. You have to support it or improve it. You have to stick with it. Not providing “support” and then change expectations and let it die. Surely it helps if you have less cash or only good weather friends. But same happens with your neighbour. First they long for F16. Then they are pushed to go for JF17 cause they even are forced to pay for parking fees and accept soya beans instead of the f16. Then they get the F16 again and you find that there is not even budget to buy the first 50 Jf17. I think only when politicians are forced to use budget extremelu effective they go for the best road. Otherwise it is either corrupt or stupid.
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