InsigI was talking about the IAF only. The IN would have(i think)
50 odd MIG 29K
30-40 Naval Tejas
20+ F 35 😀 (for IAC 2)
I have not very positive feelings about Naval Tejas. Jsut 30-40 is not much and we have to see whether it becomes a success. F35 is a bad move cause you should know that not has it big strings but a lot of black boxes. There will be better alternatives for IN.
Insigwhat you said is right
it was just some guy pis*ing in the pocket of some retired guys, just a shame there was a videotraining exercises are for training
I had to think about that guy after I read the interview with the Rafale pilot in AFM. Surely Dassault needs to sell the plane but it is very unconventional and unprofessional to make such statements. It reminds me of the reaction of Chuck Yeager about F16 tilted seat. It did not mean much cause it was purely to lower frontal section. Total opposite what the produces used as marketing.Chuck preferred oher planes. That guy has credits to say that. Just his autograph would make my day an extremely happy day.
InsigI read Shiv’s info cause it is fast and he surely has good pics. I think he is a lucky guy to be part of he does. Anyway, good to be in touch with seniors. As far as I know the MKI at Red Flag were mixed with young and senior pilots but we can be confident that the best are at home. Neither would they risk that their backbone (after 2015 MKI will be not the best plane in IAF but probably PAKFA) for the next 15 years is screened. It fits IAF like a glove and I am lucky that I have seen it in real and I gotta say that it kept my head up and eyes wide open. 🙂
Sofar what I read about PAF participating RF. It would be probably the same role as MKI. The F16’s are going to be used as LGB trucks to get small pockets of terrorists in tribal area. They got/bought (whatever) large quatities of LGB’s and they surely going to need them. What else would you do with 3 decades old block15 without BVR and anything else? No wonder they had another tanker trial with the US cause with their refuellers it would be not possible to refuel. We will se soon cause it will be somewhere in june/july. Not as exotic as MKI but still nice to see.
InsigHi Insig … The post you attached on the roles of respective forces during Red Flag is inaccurate. Sure, IAF Sukhois were used for ground attack but they were engaged in air to air combat in a large number of the attacks as well … these were multi-role exercises in that sense … I have spoken at length with several of the pilots who participated in addition to the exercise coordinators on the nature of the some of these air to air engagements.
Thanks
Vishnu
Hi Vishnu,
Nice talking to ya. Are you the Lifevist person? About the attachments. They are giving the same info as AFM article published after the exercise. I was not there so my conclusions are based on these kind of articles. The MKI’s had training with F16’s before the exercise but if one cannot use full radar options then I doubt that one has seen the best of either side. Most of the time the US has kind of programs to get used to US rules. They give you the feeling that you do well but that is part of the buiding blocks. I do understand that neither Russia nor India is willing to give up secrets of their radars. And one should also add that just before the training the IAF got laserpods from Israel for their MKI’s.
There is nothing wrong with a different role. It does not degrade the pilots nor the plane. I am not suprised that friendlies got killed cause you do not have lniks, radars and IFF up and running. It would be the same if you have the best pilots and F22. During Red Flag you do have some options to change your role but knowing the program they were only for a2g.
InsigSimulators yes…but nothing matches real world practice. I was not commenting on the F-22’s powers just the fact that it has a TVC engine so WVR combat can be practiced against an aircraft so equipped.
I am curious to know on which TVC equipped Su aircraft is the PAF training on…as far as I know only Malaysia got the TVC equipped Su 30 version other than India. If PAF is training on those it will be very interesting as it is the closest version to the MKI with even the same mission computer made for both versions by HAL in India.
You would be indeed amazed but sims are exrtemely important. F22 pilots get nu dualseater but a sim.
The funniest I heard about a VC was that it makes a heavy truck more agile but there is a limit to everything. With missiles and electronics getting better and better the TVC part during air combat is less intresting. If the F22 needs its TVC then it failed already. That is my conclusion. 🙂
MKI is nice but let us not overestimate it while we have no real results.
InsigUpgrade old airframe is a bad idea. Pilot still need training time/hand on time on the real plane, sharpen their skill. Old airframe can only take that much of airtime. Overstress it will shorten their life even faster and accident will bound to happen.
Old airframe, no matter how they patch will still be old airframe. Crack will appear sooner or later. Aircraft are not like tank. Old tank breaks down and stop running. Airplane breaks down what happen? Drop from sky and that’s it.
Plus, Mig-29 running on 2 engines are high maintenance. I would rather Serbia spend the available money on new airframe which is low in maintenance.
Upgrading Migs, which have a short life (certainly the engines), isn’t making much better. Upgrading is not cheap and cost lot of time. We have seen certain Mig21 upgrades which were not a success. I have the same idea about mig29. Just add some more cash and get a Flanker.
InsigInteresting. Do you have any source to back up on that ?
@ the Gigantic order bit : it (42 A/c order) is in addition to 230 MKIs …
270 MKIs is big enough right ? 🙂Also, can you also give a source to your claim that the MKIs were NOT allowed to use their radars ?! 😮
InsigOK, let me put it this way, If the USAF whupped IAF asses, they would never put it on record. Thats called diplomacy. The USAF Col was speaking off the record and you contridicted this yes in your next post you say
” the radar was used in training mode, a mode which IAF pilots told me was “very robust.”
So you dont want to believe USAF guys off the record but happy to qoute IAF pilots off the record.
Do you see what I mean now when I say it is one air forces word against another?
It was ground role not air to air role…
http://www.dreamlandresort.com/info/flags.html
Red Flag 08-4: 08/11/2008 – 08/22/2008
Air
Red Team Air F-15 / F-16C
Blue Team Air F-15
F-15
Rafale
Air-to-Ground
Rafale’
F-15
SU-30
F-15K
SEAD
EA-6B
F-16
F-16
EC-130H
Command & Control
Reconnaissance E-3 Tinker AFB, OK
Airlift C-130
C-17 French Air Force
McChord AFB, WA
Refueling KC-135
IL-76/78 unit to be determined
Indian Air Force
First time participation of Indian Air Force with eight SU-30 MK-I fighters, two IL-78 mid-air refueling aircraft and one IL-76 transport aircraft. Also first-time participation of six F-15K fighters of the South Korean Air Force.
InsigInteresting. Do you have any source to back up on that ?
@ the Gigantic order bit : it (42 A/c order) is in addition to 230 MKIs …
270 MKIs is big enough right ? 🙂Also, can you also give a source to your claim that the MKIs were NOT allowed to use their radars ?! 😮
Nirav,
Google: “no radar MKI Red Flag” and you can have your sources without asking it. I bet there will be some different views but as far as I remember, even in the UK, the MKI were guided by Tornado radars to simulate BVR. And the reason that they shot everything that moved (and yes a lot of friendlies) in Red Flag has to do with no links, no radar and no compatible IFF. I do not claim anything. I just provide information already known and discussed so often, even on this forum. There is no gain for me personal. MKI is a great plane. But we must differentiate dreams from facts.
About the MKI order. 230 planes is indeed impressive if you know that it means 2 engines, 2 pilots per plane! But still, compare that to USA. Then it is less then the number of ex USAF f16’s at AMARC (old name). India is huge and not only in size but also in population. 230 is intresting but it could have a lot more. I have the feeling that another plane will be bought in larger numbers.
InsigThat is where you are wrong…I don’t think the PAF has access to TVC aircraft to practice tactics. If they practiced it with the F-22 it gives them an advantage which they could not get against the MKI.
They (PAF) surely have simulators to train different tactics and I doubt that the real advantage of the F22 is only in the TVC. It is the whole concept of F22 which allows it to stay vry high (undetected by laong range radars or IRST) and then get in fast, attack and get up and hugh again without being noticed. Without WVR the opponent will be a dead chicken. In WVR it will have terrible time locking it cause it is optimized not to be locked. And yes, it is agile but if a bullet is lucky to hit it then it reacts like any other plane.
For your info. As you can read in latest AFM the F22 pilot had very positive points about PAF pilots. Even though they were very young they did extremely well. Same words from Rafale pilot. And then imagine that they were part of Rafale, Ef2000, Block60, MLU and block52 in real a2a training.
InsigThat is where you are wrong…I don’t think the PAF has access to TVC aircraft to practice tactics. If they practiced it with the F-22 it gives them an advantage which they could not get against the MKI.
They surely have simulators and I doubt that the real advantage is TVC. It is the whole concept of F22. Without WVR the opponent will be a dead chicken. In WVR it will have terrible time locking it cause it is optimized not to be locked. And yes, it is agile but if a bullet is lucky to hit it then it reacts like any other plane.
For your info. Atleast one PAF pilot is training at the moment on a MK…
InsigExcelent post VishnuSom. Great to hear a report from someone who -countrary to other bigmouths- actually was there during Red Flag! Lots of new info, but no surprises really. And the fact that IAI just ordered som 40 adittional MKIs (on top of their all ready gigant order) just confirmes that IAI is quite satisfied with how their aircraft and pilots performed at Red Flag.
Will be interesting to see what they can achieve in future red Flags. Especially so if they could get back up from their new Phalcon AWACSes..
Please refrain form degrading remarks.IAI is probably IAF. 40 isn’t a gigantic order if you look at 125 MRCA. I doubt IAF will use Phalcon if they were not allowed to use MKI radar.
InsigHi Rimmer … its not the word of one Air Force against another. None of the points I have written in this post which has now been circulated EVERYWHERE have been questioned either by the US or Indian Air Force.
The US Colonel in question was never a legitimate USAF voice on the exercises themselves. As mentioned, he was not directly linked with the day to day operations of Red Flag and many of his points were inaccurate. There has, since, been a letter of clarification from the USAF to the IAF explaining how the Colonel was expressing his own views, not those of anyone representing Red Flag.
Thanks
Vishnu
The MKI was at Red Flag purely for the ground role. No radar usage. No link16. No F22 in competition. I do not think one can make conclusions that give MKI airdominance credits. Presonally I think that size does matter (rcs). As Rimmer writes: it is one word against the other. We see that same from French Rafale pilot (read latest AFM) about its being superior to EF2000 and doing superb against F22.
Insigit goes to show that the Pakisistanis still view their F-16s as the top aircraft in their inventory
14 (+maybe10) against 35 F16 block 15… I do not think the JF17 reached really combat ready status and just one squadron is not making that much impact at the moment. Compare that with 3 decades well trained pilots, engineers and planes. Still I agree that if you look at the basics… Block15 without BVR, no glass cockpit, no links is less then JF17 at the moment.
InsigPlease let us keep neutral.
I am suprised PAF got mixed up with F22 while MKI did not had the chance but that was a while ago and I doubt the Russians would allow to do that. PAF has nothing to lose cause PG is going to be replaced with JF17 and do not really enjoy the same generation status. X million USD against XXX million USD? Nice for the pilots but not really fair fight.
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