why ? it’s a very good chopper.

Is India still interested in the AW-101 for its ‘VVIP’ transport needs (mentioned above)?

order has been placed for 12 AW-101’s. http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=4534664&c=ASI&s=AIR

200 new attack helos?? :confused:
Gosh, the neighbours better watch out…

201 to be precise, 22 AH84/Mi-28 + 65 LCH (IAF) + 114 LCH (IA)
not counting 54 WSI (weapon systems integrated) version of the dhruv for the army.

I never understood why all the eurocanards went for big single vertical tailfins. I mean even iran went for a pair of angled fins. 😀

samtel already makes topsight in a JV with thales.

IJT crashes for the third time in 4 years

count on DDM to come up with an asinine headline. this one is a crash, the other two were what are called minor accidents.

@Boom

Sorry mate, I read your post but am too tired to answer properly.
Expect an answer between 12 and 24 +hours.

Just a quick reply to this though :

France COULD NOT have done that for the simple reason that
the Rafale and the EF are not comparable planes!
France withdrew from the EF2000 because it wanted and needed
a do-it-all machine not a bombing dogfighter or a bomber that
could dogfight.*
We wanted omni-role ( sorry guys ) and we got it!
I don’t know if that was the answer you knew was coming but it
is the truth!

Sure it doesn’t serve ice cream on the streetcorner as some required
but as INDIA will soon discover IMHO, it does what it should, a tad more
than others.
Can’t wait to see you guys kick azz with it az you did with M2Ks, BTW!:D

Write/Read you tomorrow, Tay.

*That and size and timetable and industrial leadership.

come on Tay, whichever way you cut it, typhi and rafa are not that different either. if france wanted it could have easily created a france specific version of EF that covered most if not all of its requirements.
yet, it didn’t. what that and your post shows is that france was unwilling to handover or even share leadership on the fighter project. absolutely nothing wrong in that.
just that similar reasons exist for the tejas, scrapping it was an option that was not even on the table. it was India’s chance to develop a modern fighter from scratch to full service, an experience that was absolutely invaluable to the domestic industry and there was no way they were going to surrender that for saving a couple of 100 mn (if that). as I said, read up a little on the total costs of the tejas program and you will appreciate that pound for pound, what it gives India’s MIC is absolutely unbeatable.

———————-

Personally I think a factor in favor of Rafale is if the Indians DON’T buy it the French may offer it to the Pakistanis. OTOH the Eurofighter consortium is unlikely to sell to Pakistan.

will france pay for it too ? or will the US ?
otherwise I find it difficult to understand how PAF can afford the rafale.

———————-

The chances of either the SH or the F-16IN actually flying in the indian air forces are next to nil. I doubt that any legal actions or challeneges on the part of Boeing or LMA would yeild in any significant change in the Indian descision. India is probably more likely to continue ordering more US defence equipment and continue the current growth in Indo-US defence ties…The MRCA will be European , and Me thinks most likely French.

there have been cases of weapon co’s moving courts to stall acquisitions when decisions went against them. MOD and forces have been absolutely p!ssed off by the antics. the chief of IAF even made a reference to that during his last public statement on MRCA, which was before the down-select.
both LM and boeing have a lot of deals brewing and they will shoot themselves in the foot if they try the legal option at the behest of some egomaniac thinktank-er or politician.

————————

rafale vs mig 29 is a joke. The 29 is two leagues behind. In terms of sensor integration, sensor fusion, sensor technology, EW…the mig is dropped completely. Having talked to rafale pilots in Paris two years ago who did red flag with the indians, even the Mki is quite far behind in this regard. The level of situation awarness is totally different. The mig and the sukhoi are pretty work intensive while with the rafale you can grasp the tactical situation in just one look. That the fundamental difference with those platform. Talking only about radar size is just over simplistic.

perhaps true to some extent but remember that is precisely why they have an extra crew, to handle the workload. the overall performance would not be that different. and the MKI upg will address much of that particular shortcoming.

———————–

Several mistake here eagle1.
You can not use the red flag 2008 as an metric on the IAF(MKI) network sentric.
The IAF did not deploy any Phalcon AWACS to Red Flag, well they did not have any at the time and USAF would not allowed it eighter.
See previosly Cope India, where US was not allowed to bring any E-3 to the fight.

wrong ! except the 2004 gwalior edition all COPE exercises have involved the E-3 if my memory serves right.
see f.e E-3 from 2006 at kalaikunda AFS
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Images/Special2/CopeIndia/Cope06-USA04.jpg

So the MKI in Red Flag was only flying on voice comunication..
A lot of mistakes was made by the E-3 controlers due to funny aksent by MKI pilots etc..
And still the MKI made a good figure against all the other net sentric aircraft in Red Flag.
Hardly enough to draw ANY conclusion on MKI and Mig-29 network sentric capability.

actually it was the performance of the GCI controllers (when E-3 was not available) that was deemed the source of the problem, not accent or anything. USAF fighters had the same number of fraticides as IAF, this when all their network centricity was active !
the MKI’s were not even allowed to use IFF.

——————

It amuses me that, if this had been a contract for the US military, the losing US competitor would have immediately rolled out the lawyers and put a halt to the whole process. As it’s not a US contract, they’ve both effectively slunk away with their tails between their legs. Hmm, maybe US isn’t neccesarily the best after all, for all that certain companies (and not a few fanboys) would have the world believe? If either are dumb enough to go legal on the Indians, what will the Indians tell them to go forth and do?

As a Brit I’d like the Typhoon to win but the Rafale is just as good IMHO. Good on you India :).

oh, don’t think they haven’t tried that in India before. nothing came off it other than a delay in acquisition and seriously irritating MOD and IAF since the courts quashed the move. if they decide to try it again without valid grounds MOD might just blacklist them.

post guide. :p

Taygibay’s earlier post
My earlier reply
Taygibay’s latest post

Pak-Fa can be hastened with money.

“how so ? kindly be specific as to which parts of PAKFA project are being held up for lack of money”

Just about anything from R&D and production of the engines
and AESA to setting up a larger plant faster?

the PAKFA first flew in 2010 and is projected to enter service in 2018 or thereabouts.that’s 8 years ! (F-22 took 15) that is absolutely the minimum time one requires to develop a full fledged 5gen fighter ! no amount of money is going to hasten this process.

Killing Tejas only to immediately go into cooperation with SAAB
on the NG as a replacement to it and MMRCA pick.

“and how would that be ‘smart’ for India ? that would be the stupidest thing anyone could do, destroy a vital project in which a lot of effort and investment has gone into. and then replace it with a costlier foreign option that is at best comparable to the original product ?
so killing a domestic product that would create jobs inside the country to pay more to a foreign seller for a product very comparable is smart thinking ? “

I do believe this has been answered by numerous
“raised eyebrows” posts. I am sorry mate but the
TEJAS is not comparable to the GRIPEN NG. Your
vital project has fulfilled its role of teaching the
industry how to design and produce a modern jet.
That expertise could have been used on making
the NG in India as Junior partners to SAAB as NG
is not in production yet and then as Senior partner
on the AMCA.

well sorry mate, ‘raised eyebrows’ (by two gripen fanboys and one DRDO basher who makes a fool of himself all the time and comes back for more !) does NOT equal datapoints. and those raised eyebrows have been refuted again and again in past threads. the tejas Mk2 is definitely comparable to the NG, you need to keep up. 😉
if you have further queries on this I will be happy to answer them in IAF thread.

also why didn’t france wrap up the rafale and join EF consortium as a junior partner ? I know what your answer is going to be and I can tell you that originates from a rather ignorant view of the tejas program and what it has achieved.

Then get a major player into the AMCA, not lite counseling!

“as I said AMCA has no relation with MRCA or tejas. not sure why you are under the illusion those are somehow connected. and getting a major player for AMCA is more like ‘nice to have’, not something essential.”

I am under the impression that those two are connected
as dots in the learning curve of Indian plane makers.
I am also under the impression that AMCA is a hefty
call for them! Heck, I’ll bet 20 bucks any currency that
if done entirely alone AMCA will be more succesful than
TEJAS but less than Western equivalents. Next one … ?

tejas was a far more “heftier” call for them than AMCA is. they were tasked with developing a 4gen fighter from zero industrial base where even the basic labs had to be created first, starved of funding for long periods and then drip funded, work done on the FBW system by them was held back by the americans where it was being tested on an F-16, in turn delaying the program by 2 years, IAF and MOD had little confidence in ADA’s ability to deliver and they were forced to embark upon on a time wasting tech demonstrator phase. and even after all this they still managed to reach IOC in 17 years. with all their experience, dassault took 17 years with rafale and EF took 20.

now compare with AMCA, ADA has a ready pool of experienced designers, a relatively mature R&D base, steady funding from the govt and most importantly the full support of IAF top brass and MOD.

btw, do define ‘less successful’. as of now other than US NO ‘western equivalent’ in the first place and most likely might not be one in the future. not sure how funding a western 5gen fighter program with Indian money counts as ‘success’. 😉

I’ll let the Swedes appreciate “dumbing down to gripNG levels”
as it relates to replacing Fishbeds, M2000s and Tejas!!!
“why on earth would someone want to ‘replace’ tejas with something that is at similar levels of tech and capability but costs more ?
and dumbing down wrt EF and rafale. what they are replacing is irrelevant, what is relevant is what IAF needs. “

Answered up there.

replied up there as well.

As for cancelling a program with dubious results, just remember
that America ( Which, IIRRC, has less problems feeding its people
than India. ) is reducing the F-35 program and has in recent years
“killed” Comanche and EFV amongst others! Maybe a lesson there?

“not sure what lesson, may be that we are not US and the commanche does not have the slightest similarity with tejas ? also, you are clearly ill informed about the tejas program.
what we do have learned is that if you try to ‘save’ on the domestic programs you end up getting screwed by greedy foreign firms like dassault, as the mirage upg shows.
of course, lectures about poverty materialise only when it comes to Indian projects, conveniently forgetting that even after all the supposed ‘cost over runs’ and ‘delays’ the program still cost only around $ 1 bn. that includes the cost of setting up basic infrastructure for aircraft development.”
*
If you understand that I am suggesting using all the money
planned for TEJAS on the AMCA and promoting the industry,

IAF requires tejas AND AMCA, it’s not a question of tejas OR AMCA.

there is no way that you can fault me for the “lecture”.
Saying that there are steps yet on acquiring a top notch
military aircraft production industrial capacity is not showing
disrespect but interest. Saying that you can and should hone
your skills some more is not condescendence, it stems from
frienship. GO, go go India!

Just remember what club you are trying to join!
Three countries build fighter planes from scratch
on a national basis. A handful of others can do so
solo with imported tech or in cooperation. That’s all!
No doubt about your getting there, disagreeing on timeline!

unfortunately the steps you are recommending will achieve the opposite of ‘honing your skills’. 😉

* Your argument about economics of jobs induced is very valid.
Could the solution be exportation? Say flood Africa with TEJAS?

the amount that IAF spends on foreign arms, if spent in India is enough for the moment to sustain the domestic industry and then some.

also, barring a couple, most countries in africa might not be looking for the sophistication offered by the tejas, the cheaper and simpler JF17 might look a better buy to them. all this is moot anyway because HAL first has to satisfy IAF’s massive demand first, only then they would be able to look at exports.

I recall reading that domestic production actually increased per unit MKI cost….

wrong. it would have increased if they tried to make the entire aircraft from raw materials, which they decided against. right now around 70% IIRC (by cost) is made from raw materials in India while the rest of subsystems is sourced from russia.

i wonder when Tejas became NG comparible

tejas Mk2 ~ NG

official confirmation that the teens are out of the race.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/article1818550.ece
U.S. disappointed over IAF deal, but respects process

With its fighters losing out in the bid for India’s multi-billion dollar deal, the U.S. on Thursday said it was “deeply disappointed” over it but was “respectful” of the procurement process.

In a statement in New Delhi, Ambassador Timothy Roemer said he had been assured at the highest levels in the Indian government that the procurement process for the fighters “has been and will be transparent and fair”.

He said the U.S. looked forward to continuing to grow and develop defence partnership with India.

“The U.S. Embassy in New Delhi was informed yesterday that two aircraft offered by the U.S. Government through the Foreign Military Sales process were not selected for procurement by the Indian Ministry of Defence,” the statement said.

“We are reviewing the documents received from the Government of India and are respectful of the procurement process. We are, however, deeply disappointed by this news,” Mr. Roemer said.