WitchaWith regards to the discussion on how the IL-96 and Tu-204 could not be viable commercial platforms for a future A-100 AWACS, would it be possible to base such projects on new, more promising civil platforms like the Superjet-100 and the MS-21? What about the An-148?
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Also regarding the A-100, the article mentioned that it would be used for both air and ground surveillance. I suppose Beriev plans to mount a SAR radar on the IL-478’s belly?
WitchaOne thing that seems clear to me is that the Indian Defence PSUs/Ordinance Factories/R&D Institutions need more of need more of an incentive/risk to complete their projects on time. The current system of assigning every single R&D/manufacturing/overhaul/repair task in a given category to the same institution(like LRDE developing all the radars, BEL manufacturing/repairing/upgrading all electronics systems, HAL manufaruing/repairing/upgrading all aircraft) just won’t do. In all these cases a single entity or group of entities is given complete freedom over a project with no real deadlines or budget limits.
People can talk about lack of funding all they like, but when even countries with even smaller defence R&D budgets and industries(like Ukraine, Poland and Turkey) are more efficient in developing new products, there is an undeniable problem.
It’s not even necessary to have private sector competition; some public sector competition in the vein of the Russian and Chinese defence industries would give a significant boost to how Indian Defence orgs work; having to compete for projects and govt funding rather than having them assured, facing the genuine danger going out of business and losing your jobs if you can’t get domestic or export customers to accept your products would motivate the likes of BEL, the Ordinance Factories and various DRDO institutions to take initiative and aggressively develop and market products on their own.
WitchaSome of my questions I will like to ask Witcha, hope you will answer:
> How many jet powered UAV’s has India developed till now or have reached prototype stage?
If the answer to above is no or is that they are still on drawing stage or wind tunnel testing stage. Then kindly tell how do you expect Kaveri to power a non existent UAV. In the future, maybe yes.
The answer is yes, actually. Although not surveillance UAVs, the DRDO has developed several unmanned target drones(Ulka, Fluffy, Lakshya) the last of which is jet-powered. And there already is an opereational surveillance UAV, the Nishant.
Engines are not developed in a day. India will have more UAV projects in the near future that ask for jet engines(supersonic target drones, or a potential development of the in-testing Rustom). If DRDO could do so they should already be developing a Kaveri derivative for those purposes.
> Flight testing of Kaveri in a fighter jet will happen, but for that they have to employ LCA. But for LCA team’s current priority is to validate FCS/weapon delivery capability completely before its induction in IAF, and most probably that’s why they cant spare an airframe for the GTRE. I am sure like any developmental team they would not like introduce another unknown variable in their final phases of testing. Kaveri has been undergoing many high altitude tests in Russia in a rejigged IL 76 platform and has recently seen some success.
I know. My complaint was that the excuse of Kaveri not being ready because of having insufficient thrust was moot, as there were other potential applications besides LCA for which the current thrust level is fine. The problem is simply delays in developing what is possible.
>Usage in tanks for IA: No idea, IA doesnt have any turbine driven tanks in its inventory, and dont know whether they will open to this idea.
It’s not hot air. The Army’s FMBT project has mooted a gas turbine engine, and consequently so has the GTRE.
>For Navy: I think there is already a project for Kaveri Marine Gas Turbine. And Indian Navy is serious about KMGT being used for their ships. This is WIP
Like I said, it has been 2 years without any updates on the progress, and meanwhile the next-gen Kamorta class corvettes are being built with CODAD propulsion. It is worrying, if nothing else…
>Now IMHO, I don’t feel comparison of ISRO with GTRE is valid. Even lets take of China. China has an advanced space program ( ahead of India) even they have recently been successful with their jet engine. Inspite of their success, they are still cautiously introducing this engine into their J-10 and Su-27/30 fleets. It will take bit more time for them to gain confidence in it and leave their reliance upon Russian Engines.
I think designing/developing a modern jet engine is bit more complicated than rocket science :p.
Well, there are a lot more aircraft builders and specialists around than rocket scientists…;)
China has a large family of jet engines in development, some of which are even operational. This comes from their decades of licence-building various Soviet and Western engines and reverse-engineering the same. It’s a pity HAL/GTRE haven’t been able to leverage their similar 50-year licence-building experience here.
Witchaexactly..its not a personal attack but if one is so concerned about the motherland and the tax payer there, then maybe one’s services could be offered instead of complaining about those who are actually sitting back there trying to do something, whether successful or not.
an NRI pretending to be so vexed about Indian tax payers’ money not being utilized wisely because GTRE hasn’t delivered on its goals to date is a bit, if I might say so, rich..
I mean the alternative is to simply import without investing in indigenous capacity and capability building which means losing more tax payer money to foreign companies, both in the short run and long run. I’d much rather see GTRE being given guidance, direction and being made more accountable. To simply lament about tax payers without assessing all the associated factors is rubbish, pure and simple.
First of all, if this is aimed at me I’m an Indian resident living in Nashik. Happy?
Secondly, it is quite unfair to attack NRIs and foreigners for expressing geniune(if, from you POV, misguided) concern about perceived misuse/ wastage of Indian public money.
WitchaWitcha, please call 080-25040483, Its Grievances Contact number for GTRE and if their response is un-satisfactory you can always contact Def. minister
Great. Hostility, sarcasm and over-defensiveness. You’re right. We have absolutely no right to complain or criticise. Let the GTRE take as much time as necessary, no deadlines required! See ya in another 25 years!:rolleyes:
Witcha, GTRE existing for 60 years or kaveri for 30 years is meaningless rhetoric, the pertinent point being what mandate and more importantly, funds were they given by the govt. I am sure you know that the answer is ‘nothing’, they had a building and that’s about it.
anyway, you got the basic maths wrong as well, GTRE was established in 1959, that makes it nearer 50 than 60.
the official lifetime of the kaveri project is 25 years. while bungling at MOD level has played its part in slowing down the project, GTRE can’t move beyond the current level without a breakthrough in materials, which, as I have repeated umpteen times, falls outside its area of responsibility.
And like I said, I don’t care about the higher-thrust Kaveri. Even with their current level (and GTRE themselves say so) it’s quite possible to deliver a lower-thrust engine for a trainer aircraft, a UAV or even spin-offs for locomotives, tanks, gas turbine generators and marine propulsion. But all we get are verbal assurances, as it is the K9 Kaveri has not even finished flight certification let alone started development of a functional trainer/UAC engine derivative. And likewise the tank, generator and locomotive derivates remain on the drawing board(if even that). The only other product that shows any promise of being functional in the near future is KMGT, and even that has had no updates for years.
See, having a key research project is fine, but if it keeps going at its own pace without any ready, deliverable product of any sort along the way(as opposed to more prototypes and proposals) yes, it is worrying. I’m not expecting them to deliver the moon, but I do expect something tangible to come out of their seemingly never ending research.:(
WitchaThe problem with Kaveri has been that though GTRE has been displaying those specs for nearly a decade , they have not been able to meet those goals.
Now if they managed to reach that goal in the test that is happening in Russia then its good , finally they need a flight qualified engine to test Kaveri with LCA and that is what matters.
How ever I dont see Kaveri in the present form being mass produced for Tejas as the thrust needed are higher for Mk2 and even Mk1 has higher thrust engine 89 Kn … but hopefully the Snecma tie up will bring in what it needs to power the LCA.
An honest and to-the-point assessment. Nothing overly defensive or critical. Thank you, that’s pretty much how I see it.:)
WitchaI pay the tax, but I am really happy to learn my tax money goes into developmental efforts like these, and so do my friends who know a thing or two about pains and labor one has to go in R&D. GTRE will see success for sure, if not today but can be tomorrow. If the rumor on BR is correct we might see slightly scaled up version of Kaveri producing “almosts” 90-95 kn
My feelings on the matter are this: the GTRE has existed for over 60 years and the Kaveri program for over 30 years, and in this period while there is plenty of R & D going on at any given stage, they are yet to produce a final, working, ready product in any form.
Forget about the LCA, I’d be happy to see a flight-tested, airworthy 60kN engine for UAVs like they were suggeting. But even that is at least years off…:(
I realise many here will counter with variations of how GTRE has limited budget and so on, but seeing the examples of ISRO or the ones behind our guided missile programmes I remain somewhat unimpressed.
There is presently no alternative to the Kaveri, but I as a taxpayer would like to see the thousands of crores spent and going to be spent on it be better used. Or at the least, fund a parallel initiative in the fashion of Russia or China and select the better one in the long run.
WitchaRegarding those figures about testing hours, all I can recall as a few posts on the BR forums by someone with some experience in aero-engines. Apparently it’s quite normal for any new or modified engine to undergo several thousands hours of ground tests, and the GTRE figure of 2000-something hours after over a decade since the first working prototype is not all that impressive.
Of course, this is just a layman expressing someone else’s opinion, so please don’t be angry at me for the same.:o
WitchaWhat is the point of it? It will cost disproportionately heavy compared to just getting more An-124s. The money would funnel right into Ukraine instead of Russia, with An-124 production. What can it do that An-124 cannot? Then we get into cost of maintenance, spares, and just plain use. Training just for one aircraft…
From what I’ve read on it, it’s about size more so than weight. The An-225 allows the transportation of all sorts of oversized cargo, including complex technical equipment, without the need to dismantle it owing to space limitations. That’s why the existing An-225 is overbooked.
WitchaThe VVS classifies the An-70 as a medium transport and the Il-476 as a heavy transport, in other words their considered a different class of aircraft. Flight tests for the Il-476 are scheduled for Feb 2012 and there’s no way the An-70 is going to replace the Il-476.
BTW, the Min. of Defence has officially requested the price for the completion of the second An-225
The Ukrainans have already given their price: $300 million. But given past events it’s highly unlikely the Russian MoD will be ready to offer even one-third the amount. I wouldn’t be surprised if they asked for it to be handed over free of charge like the Slava cruiser.
Given the half-finished airframe has been sitting for over two decades I expect it to be eventually scrapped.
Also, with a good air defence grid(and Russia’s is the best in the world) I don’t think getting strategic airbases bombed would be a major problem.
WitchaSo just having access to specialised materials would put GTRE in a position to design and develop an engine near/equal to M-88 / F414 / EJ200 in performance?
I somehow doubt it. They are lacking more in the way of expertise than just materials, especially if you mean a modern engine design by today’s standards. Dual FADECs, use of ceramics and carbon fibre composites, RAM treatments, fuel efficiency et al. And there’s much more in the way of new developments.
You know what I think the GOI should be doing? Commissioning a parallel aero-engine research programme with a partnership between a foreign major(say, Rolls Royce) and an Indian industrial house like Tata. Some competition may do GTRE-Snecma some good and increase the chances of seeing a viable product in time.
Some say India can’t afford parallel initiatives for the same thing, but we routinely spend more money importing or licence-building foreign engines than we do on the Kaveri programme. So what’s another engine R & D initiative in comparison?
WitchaAt least the Antonov directors have the right idea, hopefully Russia will take them up on it (or perhaps rather call their bluff?) if Ukraine does indeed not meet its obligations. Moving the whole thing to Russia and finally getting it over with would be the appropriate answer, not pulling the plug yet again. As has been discussed at length already, it’s not like this would break the bank for Russia, things really can’t be all that bad if they have money to spare for something as redundant as the Il-476 (which could then be axed anyway).
Given it’ll still be years before the IL-476 assembly line is set up, would it be possible to scrap the program and buy the An-70, similar to how the IL-112V got scrapped in favour of the An-140?
Though the two can co-exist… The An-70 occupies the 45-tonne category while the IL-476 is bigger and is inching more towards the C-17 class with its 60 tonnes. Couldn’t the Russian Air Force buy a ‘hi-lo’ combination of both?:confused:
WitchaNo Ukrainian funds for the An-70. The project might get shifted to Russia threaten Antonov chiefs…
Ukraine delays the funding for the creation of the An-70
The completion of the research and development (R & D) in the Ukrainian-Russian program to create medium transport aircraft An-70 may be shifted due to lack of government funding of the project by the Ukrainian side, the head of the SJC “Antonov”, president-genkonstruktor SE “Antonov “Dmitry Kiva.
Pity. To think a few years ago this was the most promising aircraft in its class. I’d have preferred to see this replace the IL-76MDs rather than the 476. Just my opinion…
To the RVV-BD gurus above, what happened to the proposed R-77M ramjet-powered AAM? Was it cancelled in favour of this more conventional successor?
WitchaI guess p kischei was declared a loser when (s)he was in kindergarten. 😀
I mean he didn’t have a college degree back then did (s)he ?
No personal attacks, please.
the current plan is indeed to have a M-88 core ‘K10’ Kaveri engine for the AMCA and the AURA UCAV. Sadly it seems to be moving slower than I’d hoped. Even if the contract is signed today it may take upto 6-7 years before the new engine is ready for integration with the intended platform.:(
What is the status of the Astra AAM? The Tejas induction is around the corner, yet it looks like it’ll be coming with R-77 and the like rather than Astra? Is it delayed?
WitchaIs that a 1500 Ltr centerline tank? So thats 950 Ltrs in the hump+ 1500 Ltrs tank, ie 2450 Ltrs extra on the MiG-29 Upg, with the fuel from the center tank used first? So it wont even impact maneuvering capabilities.
Have to say, the Upg may be not a looker (with that tank below) but its a thorough rework to first class standards.
Wish they’d upgraded the Avionics to true cutting-edge standards rather than settling for a technological level equivalent to the 7-year old MKI. Given these will likely be flying for another 15 years into the era of 5th gen aircraft I’d have preferred they at least have a phased array radar(instead of Zhuk-ME), an HMD(instead of Schel HMS), MAWS and so on…
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