WitchaArey yaar you Pakistani, GTRE was cobbled together from HAL itself. Did you read this ? ADA, DRDO, GTRE and HAL don’t work in isolation. Now will you cease being the ignoramus ? Its for your own good.
HAL, the integrator of Tejas, has a role in Kaveri’s development? What a surprise!:rolleyes: And ‘ignoramus’… once again insults form the core of your reply… I can’t begin to tell you how idiotic you look from POV… starting with the the first line you used.:D
If you don’t understand, what can I do ? Kaveri is not a dud and it surely has an application in the Indian navy. How many Chinese ships are fired by indigenous turbines ? Please find out..
So it’s not a ‘dud’ because it can be used to power warships? Good, now can GTRE please interfering in the mk2 engine selection and can you transfer future discussions to the Indian Navy thread?
Kaveri is a booster just like the GE LM2500. Pielstick is a diesel generator. Kaveri & GE don’t run on diesel.
I’m sorry for causing you mental anguish then.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_28_Anti-Submarine_Warfare_corvette
Propulsion:4 x Pielstick 12 PA6 STC Diesel engines
CODAD, DCNS raft mounted gearbox
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_diesel_and_diesel
Still seeing GE gas turbines for the boost there? Neither do I. That’s what KMGT is meant to remedy: CODAG for smaller ships instead of CODAD.
Yeah, we’ve heard that before. Just visit the PAC Kamra website to see the glaring errors on that page.
Which tells me that the website was designed by morons. Like the ones who handled the DRDO website and caused this gaffe. At least try to look objective here.
WitchaCondolences to the pilot’s family. Sadly this incident will probably be used by some media source to criticise the Typhoon’s export potential somewhere.
WitchaTrue and I agree , they probably do not have to use a Su-34 to carry a Kh-101 considering they have too many platforms that can do that.
Depends on what number they consider enough. The Backfires and Bears are a fraction of the old Soviet fleet and will only shrink further with time. If the PAK-DA project is delayed we may see long-range ALCMs on the Su-34 as well.
WitchaWait… you think I’m Pakistani?:D:D:D So that’s where this hostility is coming from.:o
I think that given strategic interests are an important reason for the Sino-Pak defence partnership, if the Chinese are willing to part with ToT, set up manufacturing lines in Pakistan and even potentially give Pakistan a share of the export pie they won’t mind lowering their profit margins to arm their ally. Heck, the main reason the Pakistan Navy’s shelved its plan to buy U214s and is eyeing the Song class instead is because China will give them credit to help afford the purchase!
Witcha…
WitchaWitcha-ji, I’ve seen the entire list and detailed articles of Chinese engines many times. WS-13 especially (the wannabe JF-17 engine, but couldn’t).
All the engines in your list are LICENCE manufactures. You wanna see HAL’s list of engines ? Thats right here. Add to that list, Shakti and the RD-33 engine.
And..? I was criticising the GTRE, not HAL. If you bothered to read above I was one of the few being positive about HAL’s engine unit.
And that list has at least three indigenous(as in not upgraded/licence-built) engines that are currently flying on their intended aircraft(btw if you find the WS-10 hard to believe in please check out the J-15 thread). That’s three more than GTRE.
And again, what the heck does this discussion have to do with aircraft carriers(btw the Varyag is almost finished if you’ve bothered to check the relevant thread), Pakistani SLVs(when did I include their name in the list of SLV nations?) or SAAB radars.
Did you read how KMGT will be used as power generators on the Rajput and Delhi class destroyers ? And do you think 15 MW engines from GE come cheap ?
And? Do power generators replace GE motors? BTW the Navy never has and still isnt importing any of the 15MW gas turbines you speak of, the P28 corvettes currently built use Pielstick diesels. That’s what it’s likely to be replace. :rolleyes:
Your so-called “legitimate arguments” are wrapped in ignorance, tied-up in inaccuracies and hung from falsehoods.
And your recent posts are mostly built around that dialogue, most of which you’ve shown far more overtly than me.
And I meant the qualitative warranty on JF-17. I know they supposedly got a so-called “guarantee” signed from Russia about the re-export of the RD-93 to Pakistan.
And the people who are licence-building(and eventually reverse-engineering) the engine can’t provide any to their own customers? When the supply of LM2500 turbines was halted for the Shiwalik frigates MDL was ready to approach Avio(which builds them under licence) instead before the ban was lifted. I’m sure such eventualities were considered. The PAF top brass aren’t morons(and no, I’m not a ‘PakDeaf’ fan if that’s going to be the next accusation).
WitchaWith the Chinese pricing is one of the main advantages for Pakistan. They’ll probably ask for a discount(something like military aid) or a line of credit so they can get what they want at a price that seems affordable to them.
WitchaYou forgot to mention
4.Privatise
JimmyJ, if we leave if off at ‘No accountability needed. The current situation may be unfeasible but by all means leave things as they are.’ is even less of a solution. And in any case none of the above will ever happen in reality, we’re just discussing how to better things here.
WitchaBrazil to buy C-1A Traders.
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2010/08/23/346412/brazilian-navy-buys-traders.html
Hurray!!
Great little aircraft. A size of carrier support aircraft that is gravely missing in today’s setup, which is one of the major reasons why small/medium CTOL carrier air groups don’t really work these days. Great step bringing them back! And seems like they want the whole shebang – COD, AAR, AEW, ASW. Great!!!
But those Traders will be turboprop’d, so no return of piston engines to carriers. 😀
Well, with a CATOBAR carrier I suppose they’re better off with this than a helo, but why invest in this much logistics for a small carrier like the Foch?
Witchahttp://en.rian.ru/business/20100823/160303044.html
I take it the Russian Navy isn’t entirely satisfied with the Stereguschy? Why waste their resources on a second design with their limited funding?
Russian government dedicates 3 upgraded Il-114-300T’s and 2 Il-76′s to Arctic research
http://www.russiandefenseblog.org/?p=1525
Either they’re really dedicated to stop the polar ice caps from melting or this is something related to oil exploration in the Arctic.:diablo:
WitchaA counter-question :- China too hasn’t been able to develop its own indigenous engines till date. The showpiece J-10 and FC-1, both run on Russian engines because the Chinese engines intended for them aren’t upto the mark.
Given that China has a strict accountability mechanism in place and even competing government companies, its hard to fathom why thy failed to develop indigenous engines for the J-10 and FC-1.
So, there must be some “secret sauce”, some Holy grail that GE, Snecma and BaE have cracked, and which India’s GTRE and China’s Guizhou Aircraft Industry Corporation aren’t getting right, right ?
I think that’ll all come with more experience. America and France have been building figher jets since WW1. They have a wealth of knowledge on engine tech. Comapre this to Guizhou in China and GTRE in India. How much experience can they boast ?
Arey Witcha remove China from that list. Their J-10, J-11s and FC-1s run on Russian engines. At the most, the licence produce engines from Rolls-Royce — just like HAL.
This may come as a shock to you, but:
List of Chinese Aircraft Engines
Agreed that they’re not anywhere in the same league as Snecma, Honeywell et al considering most of these are upgraded or licence-built versions of foreign engines, but there’s still more to their credit than the GTRE. And at least one indigenous engine, the WS-10, is set for induction in the very near future. That’s the one powering the J-15 btw.
Even then some positives for Kaveri :-
1) It gives better thrust than Snecma’s M-88 that powers Rafale. Kaveri on Rafale will give better performance.2) It has higher thrust than the RD-33 engines that currently power IAF’s fleet of MiG-29s.
Commendable(seriously). But again thrust alone isn’t everything. The WS10 had more thrust than the AL-31F but was rejected for the J-10 because it had a higher spool-up time. Then there’s stuff like angle of attack, performance in different altitude and weather conditions(can only be definitely evaluated after trails on Tejas) and all sorts of technical issues neither you nor I know much about. It’s not a done deal.
3) Japan’s Mitsubishi corp. sent an RFI to GTRE for the Kaveri. They may use it for their upcoming 5th gen. fighter.
4) Kaveri will power Indian Navy’s ships. Bye-bye to expensive turbines from GE.
😀 I’m sorry, but you blasted me for being an unknowledgeable?
http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/built-for-air-force-kaveri-engine-chosen-by-navy/369422/
Typically warships run on regular diesel engines; gas turbines (such as the Kaveri) are added on to provide “boost power”, needed for manoeuvring in battle. Contemporary gas turbines, such as the General Electric LM2500, provide India’s latest 5000-tonne Shivalik class frigates with 22 Mw of boost. The Kaveri’s more modest 12 Mw is sufficient only for smaller warships
Not to nitpick, but the KMGT is eventually intended at the 15MW rating, intended for smaller ships like corvettes. They won’t replace the LM2500 and the Ukrainian turbines on the P15A.
WitchaDMRL is it a private firm or government run lab? And they have had thirty years to make this single crystal blade? Ah ok I get it they could not make it because of sanctions?
And for all that time they only looked at one type of material technology?
Careful. You’re going to get flamed heavily for that.:p
DMRL stands for the Defence Metallurgical Research Laboratory. A list of achievements is given on their wikipedia page itself. No, they don’t seem to have offered any reason whatsoever for their failure to make SC blades.
WitchaWhich raises a question for an outsider to Indian aerospace like me. Why has GTRE’s comparatively bad performance been tolerated rather than being addressed and fixed?
Because for all the brouhah about liberalisation, there is still a deep culture of socialism in Indian government policies, especially under the Congress. It’s difficult enough for the MoD(currently headed by a pair of dedicated Communists) to give the private industry a contract for basic equipment like small arms, fuses and NVGs. It would be unimaginable for them to sanction a private-headed R & D project of the Kaveri’s scale anytime soon.
As to why there’s no competition for GTRE within the PSU/DRDO structure, that’s how it generally is; DRDO generally has only one lab/institute focusing on any particular field of research; LRDE develops all the radars, DARE develops things like mission computers and so on. The reason seems to be saving in cost by not duplicating resources.
Witchaah yes, the ISRO argument. never mind the fact that technology wise GTRE has already achieved the equivalent of what ISRO has, in less time as well. now don’t go all aggressive on me, step back and think of the tech ISRO currently employs, compare it with other space programs and then do the same with GTRE. also note how many countries can design and make modern turbofans and how many can make rockets.
Heh. You mean GTRE has developed, tested, certified and integrated multiple jet engine types and classes using multiple fuels? And since you want to compare, the number of nations that can build their own full-fledged satellite launch vehicles are:
-US
-Russia
-China
-EU
-India
And the nations that build jet engines are:
-US
-Russia
-China
-EU
Hmmm…
for ISRO, being half a decade behind in tech does not matter as long as the launch is
a) reliable
and
b) cheaper than competitors.
The Kaveri is hardly the cutting-edge of engine technology either. No modular construction, BLISK, RAM blockers, ceramic components or TVC nozzles, just FADEC. Relatively basic by modern standards. But so long as it meets the IAF’s requirements that’s more than enough, and that’s what matters.
GTRE has already demonstrated that it is capable of designing and fabricating a modern turbofan, the shortfall is primarily in single crystal blades, that is DMRL’s responsibility, not GTRE’s.
Single crystal blades aren’t exactly the be-all, end-all of jet engine design. There are many engines in service that don’t have them.
WitchaMy bad. I meant whether it’s possible to have a less complicated IEP arrangement with only dedicated diesel gensets rather than having marine diesels and gas turbines coupled to separate generators.
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