Anybody here remember the EL/M-2052 AESA radar? The specs it was advertised with were mind-blowing. I vividly remember the line about being able to detect upto 64 targets. If it was really as good as it was claimed it’s a great shame no one bought it or developed it further.

http://www.iai.co.il/33796-34455-en/ELTA.aspx?btl=1

The bulk of Teer’s reply was ‘You don’t know anything because I say so, everything you say is irrelevant.’ Whatever (vaguely) informative points he imparts are drowned out by the oozing condescention and ‘Hmph! Young whippersnapper! I’m an expert!’ attitude.

I’ll only answer this: if your argument against awarding the private sector any contracts is that they have never been awarded contracts before, it’s a broken argument. Some degree of charity is required in distributing this contracts if one wants to develop capabilities in competing organisations.

And this: subcontracting small components here and there isn’t going to do much to develop private expertise in developing and integrating full-fledged products.

This cant get more idiotic !
Again, Gas Turbine engines for Fighter A/c are not exactly simple lego building blocks engineering, where in you hire a bunch of people who have no experience in this field, give them money and say that we want a “FLAT Rated Gas Turbine engine in the 80-85 kN class pronto” ..

GTRE has the K9 prototype which will begin flight trials shortly on board an IL-76 , and once that is completed, its slated to be mated with Tejas PV-1 which would be great.
And looking at this Video, it doesnt seem that the Kaveri program is a failure as such .. !

“We never delivered before so you can’t expect us to deliver ever!” is a broken argument. Firstly when the Kaveri program started the GTRE wasn’t a bunch of fresh-faced amateurs scratching their heads and wondering ‘How does a jet engine work? We first need to learn ABC from textbooks.’ They already had experience with earlier-generation jet engines like the Orpheus(which they widely experimented upon and upgraded) along with documentation on various Soviet engines used in HAL-build MiGs. Even so they were given 20+ years and Rs.3000+ crores for developing the engine. And even so the result is unsatisfactory. BTW even after integration with Tejas it’ll still need thousands of hours of testing, and even after that the results still need to match the performance targets, which at this stage it won’t. Shiny static test videos don’t show anything.

For the time being, since the Kaveri program is delinked form the LCA, there IS no impact on the LCA-Tejas or on National security as the Tejas is flying and proceeding with the GE F404 interim measure ….

As the IAF accused some time back, even if it is officially ‘de-linked’ the GTRE won’t give up lobbying for acceptance even if it delays the LCA, which is what is happening with the failure to select a new engine for Mk.2 due to protests from the GTRE/Snecma entente.

And regarding a “JV” with a foreign partner, and the proposed GTRE-Snecma tie up, the IAF was quick to notice that the GTRE wont be absorbing CORE technology in that tie up as the French are proposing to use the M88 core.
It may come up with a useable engine for the LCA-mkII and/or the AMCA, however, the core will still be FOREIGN !

And what they want instead is a 100% foreign engine, because they realise expecting GTRE to deliver indigenous product within a reasonable timeframe is futile.

Once the Kaveri is done with matching LCAs specs, I say, only GTRE should be tasked with coming up with an Engine for Tejas MKII and AMCA.
Even if they take time and cannot meet the requirement for Tejas MKII, its okay since that can be fulfilled by the GE or Eurojet engine…

Right. Allow them to ‘take time’ and delay the mk.II by another five years, then choose the Eurojet, by which GTRE will partner up with Pratt & Whitney and offer an even better Kaveri!:rolleyes:

However, that will ensure that once its ready, India would have achieved true indigenisation in Gas turbine tech and then suitably equip its fighters …

As far as I and the IAF are concerned, the GTRE can take its sweet time achieving indigenisation in Gas Turbine tech so long as it remains far away from the LCA.

Does China have any intention to develop a ‘true’ bomber in the vein of the Tu-22M and Tu-160 to replace their current fleet of H-6 Badgers?

On a couple of the points

(iii)Lack of availability of test facilities in the country necessitating testing abroad.

When their budget was revised from Rs.300cr to Rs.2873cr shouldn’t they have asked for testing facilities? ISRO has advanced wind tunnel facilities so it can’t be difficult to build.

(iv)Lack of availability of critical equipment & materials and denial of technologies by the technologically advanced countries.

Can’t take this point very seriously. The sanctions that would block such ToT were only imposed in the late 90s, and that too only by the US & UK(Among jet engine manufacturers). They always had the option of going to Klimov/Salyut/NPO Saturn and Snecma. I have a feeling this point was added to gain sympathy from the perception of evil Western sanctions.

(v) Non availability of skilled/technically specialized manpower.

There was a bit on the BRF forums. Apparently GTRE failed to attract professionals skilled in engine/turbine design and had to make do with inexperienced staff. If so part of the blame lies with them for not using their vast research grants to contract the necessary expertise.

Yep … very much in the “behind” of history ! 😀

@Witcha : In view of your constant criticism of GTRE, i would like to remind you that there are NOT many countries who manufacture JET Engines !
If throwing loads of monies was all it took, every country in this world would be churning out engines !

for GTRE to have come up with Kaveri which meets about ~90 % of LCAs requirement is itself a feat, coming from a country where we dont even have indigenous manufacturing of automotive engines !

There was a long and detailed discussion on the Kaveri engine specs and claims in Bharat Rakshak long ago. I don’t entirely remember or understand all the technical details that I read, but the gist of was that thrust alone doesn’t prove the engine’s performance. Among others, there are factors like angle-of-attack rates, fuel consumption figures and so on that will require a lot more testing to prove. BTW all versions of the engine together have only been tested for 1700-2000 hours so far when an engine should be tested for the duration of its operation life(3000 hrs in this case).

And keep in mind the current version of Kaveri has dumped the Kabini core and uses the Snecma M88 core intead. How much of this was GTRE’s effort? Pardon me if I’m leery of the GTRE’s sincerity after reading articles like this.
http://news.oneindia.in/2007/01/11/cbi-seizes-assets-and-cash-of-rs5818-lakhs-from-gtre-official-1168502950.html
This was a C-grade technical officer, a relatively low rank. If he could get away with looting this much research funding then imagine how much wealthier higher officials must be getting off the taxpayer. This is what happens when the government keeps writing blank cheques for every budget increase request instead of considering the progress made.