WitchaShe was only allowed to pass through the Bosporus & Dardanelles because she was a hulk, which had to be towed. If she’d been refurbished in Ukraine, the Montreux Convention would have kicked in.[/QUOTE]
Well, they could just stick an SSM launcher on it and declare it as a ‘Heavy Aviation Cruiser’ in the Soviet style. And remove it once it got out.;)
WitchaWhat would you have HAL do? Spend 30 years developing raw materials that are available on the market now? Why would you want to start competing against the likes of Hexcel, Cytec, Toho Tenex, Henkel, ACG to name a few.
Or maybe encourage Indian subcontractors to establish JVs and/or purchase licences for producing these materials?
Enough mud-slinging on the CAG. They are a regulatory body who have the thankless job of ensuring the government spends our hard-earned money properly, which it usually doesn’t. They know what they are doing and are surprisingly thorough in their analyses considering the diverse fields they have to cover. Given the MoD, DRDO and the defence PSU’s past lack of accountability I welcome their criticism.
There is one thing, what happens to all of these reports? Does anyone start charging (criminal or civil charges) people involved or are these reports just confined to the anal of history?
Did you hear me speak of accountability? That’s the problem with the defence industry in India. Being mostly government-owned and run they have no real consequences for missing deadlines or delivering subpar products. In any other country such shortcomings may result in fines, slashing research grants, or even getting stripped of the contract along with the risk of layoffs and bankruptcy. But none of this can happen to a PSU. As with the LCA and Arjun, everything will go on as before irrespective of criticism(the sole consequence) until the product is finally inducted or cancelled in favour of an import. So you don’t have to worry about HAL.
India to really move at a fast pace needs to start getting public-private partnerships and start funding companies like TAAL to move beyond build to print small or leisure aircraft manufacture.
Problem for the MOD is that the armed service have again and again shown their lack of faith in the ability of the DRDO and HAL to provide items on time. Unfortunately DRDO and HAL more often than not have proved them correct.
They have more faith than you think. Institutions like LRDE, NPOL, DARE etc. are held in high esteem and supported by both the AF and Navy. But when you have institutions like the Ordinance Factories(renowned for defective products and poor servicing), the GTRE(has been allowed to exist and funded for 50+ years without delivering anything, a feat that would be impossible anywhere else in the world), and BEL(history of import substitution in critical components like artillery fuses and communication systems) their wariness is well-warranted. Like an Indian Navy Admiral said in an article I read about the rejection of the Trishul SAM, “For them it’s another research program without any real deadline, but we go every day under the threat of war without it.”(something along these lines)
And private participation (not counting subcontractors) will be limited so long as the nexus between the MoD(who always favour PSUs for domestic orders) and the state defence industry(why incessantly lobby to shut out private competition) exists.
WitchaWell, wasn’t one of the main objectives of Dhruv to develop the Indian aerospace industry? The purpose of buying a domestic product is defeated if we are still dependent on imports for most of it.
Obviously it’d be more expensive to build everything locally without any prior infrastructure. But without developing such infrastructure it’ll remain that way forever.
Witcha:eek:My bad… Misread the name through half-close eyes. It’s way past bedtime in my time zone. Sorry again. Time I went to bed…
WitchaSwiss may hike budget for jets to 5 bln Sfr
* Defence ministry paper proposes hiking aircraft budget
* Paper confirms plan is for 22 jets-TV report
The Swiss defence ministry is proposing to spend as much as 5 billion Swiss francs ($4.80 billion) to finance an unpopular plan to buy 22 new fighter jets, Swiss television said citing an internal document.
According to a consultation document dated July 29, Defence Minister Ueli Maurer is planning to ask the Swiss cabinet to raise the procurement budget for the jets to 5 billion francs even though the plan could be shot down in a national referendum.
The Swiss jet deal is hotly contested within the international aerospace industry as it is seen as setting the stage for a number of upcoming projects in Europe.
Full Story
Boeing (BA.N) pulled out of the bidding last year, leaving three other contenders: Anglo-German-Italian Eurofighter, built by EADS (EAD.PA) with BAE Systems (BAES.L) and Finmeccanica (SIFI.MI); France’s Rafale, built by Dassault Aviation (AVMD.PA); and the JAS 39 Gripen, built by Sweden’s Saab (SAABb.ST).
Why are they even considering foreign bids given the Gripen program’s financial problems? Shouldn’t they be supporting Swedish industry?
WitchaMan, I’m so envious. It’s a good thing(for the Chinese) that the PLAN did’t just have the Varyag refurbished in Ukraine in the first place; not only did it save them a lot of money, but the Chinese shipyard here looks better equipped for the role than any Russian or Ukrainian yard. Look at those cranes!
WitchaThe CVFs will have the S1850M long-range radars. Could the Sampson radar be added, and the Sylver VLS like on the Charles de Gaulle or the Italian Cavour? There seems to be plenty of space. Would that reduce the need to have a Type 45 around all the time?
The air search radar on CVF will be the ARTISAN, a derivative of SAMPSON that’s also been earmarked for the Type 26 frigates. You can see it in the model; it’s the single-faced rotating antenna on the rear island.
As for the SAMs, there’s definitely a lot of space considering these will be 65000 ton ships with only 40-50 aircraft embarked, but I doubt it’ll have anything more than a point defence system. Probably the CAMM, which will also be used on the Type 26.
WitchaI asked this question before and no one answered. Should the Bulava be cancelled, what would be the feasibility of developing a shorter two-stage version of the Sineva(which is a three-stage missile) that would fit inside the Boreis?
WitchaCommonality is a huge advantage when it comes to quickly inducting any new equipment. Pilots can be converted to the new Mi-17V5s faster and since they’re accustomed to the Mi-8 and Mi-17 it is a lot easier. Same is true of technicians. Spares commonality will be a factor and the IAF will be able to use a significant percentage of the spares it would’ve stocked for the existing Mi-17 fleet. I’ve not heard much about the Mi-8/Mi-17 fleet suffering from poor spares availability since the Mi-17 is a pretty popular model and Kazan has plenty of orders and existing models that it supports. Basically, the new Mi-17V5s would be able to get into opertional roles faster than any other heli, which would mean that the IAF could retire the oldest Mi-8s whose airframe and engine lives are truly very heavily used up.
Again, one shouldn’t apply the ‘commonality with what it’s replacing’ idea when you’re looking to replace a dated plane. If there’s something better to replace what you have, go for it(like buying C-17s to replace the IL-76 instead of IL-76MF). And based on the IAF’s experience with Russian hardware it’s safe to say that at the least the Mi-17 has higher operating/maintenance costs and lower operational ability than comparable Western helos.
As far setting up an Indian assembly line was concerned, HAL already had its hands full with the Hawk, Su-30MKI, Dhruv assembly lines plus umpteen other upgrade programs and it also adds to the cost of the program. And the Brazilian EC735 deal was quite expensive, far more so than the Mi-17V5s and with HAL now looking to start scouting for a global partner for the IMRH (Indian Multi-Role Heli) in the Mi-17 class, it makes more sense to invest in our own indigenous heli rather than splurging on some European or US model that brings nothing very substantial to the medium lift utility and transport role. If these were helis required for specialised operations like ASW operations, then yes it makes sense to invest heavily in expensive avionics, but IMO the Mi-17V5 is good enough for the IAF’s requirements.
I wasn’t thinking about HAL here. A second helicopter production line in India would be a golden opportunity to kick-start our private-sector aerospace industry. Tata and Mahindra, for instance, could cut their teeth on manufacturing/assembling the helos with foreign assistance and eventually progress to more advanced projects. As for the IMRH, it’ll still take several years to reach IOC, which is why it’s being complemented with an equal foreign purchase now.
WitchaI had completely forgotten about the price escalation on the Mi-17V5 deal.
The article that you gave also had this
it is pretty much self-explanatory as to why the IAF and MoD went with the Mi-17V5 even after the price escalation.
I can’t see how. Considering the helos are meant to replace the old Mi-8/17s commonality is a moot point. It’s like saying every aircraft should only be replaced by more of the same aircraft. And as far as factors like lifecycle costs with fuel efficiency, spares and support are concerned the IAF has had a notably poorer experience with Russian aircraft compared to Western ones.
The backlog could be solved by asking for setting up an Indian assembly line for the order, like the Brazilian EC735 deal. A sale of 139 helicopters would have any Western firm jumping through hoops to accommodate the IAF.
WitchaThe $750 million figure from that media source is grossly inaccurate. Perhaps you are not aware of the price inflation in the Mi-17 deal.
http://cpedia.com/wiki?q=Mi-17V-5&guess_ambig=Mi-17+Mi-17V-5+Croatian+Venezuelan
During Russian President Dmitry Medvedev’s visit to India in December 2008, the two countries inked a deal for the supply of 80 Mi-17V-5 (also known as Mi-171) medium lift helicopters at a cost of US$1.2 billion. [1.15] The two countries had earlier negotiated a price of $650 million, but early in 2008 Russia asked for a revision of the contract price.
That’s $15 million per helicopter, which mostly negates the Mi-17’s supposed price advantage.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/india-to-buy-80-mi17-1v-helicopters-02755/
Brazil will pay over $1 billion to buy 50 Eurocopter Cougars, and based on recent orders the simple fly-away cost of 80 UH-60M Black Hawks would hover near $1 billion.
If we’re going to shell out that much any way, it would be far better to go for a new design. Glass cockpits alone don’t make a modern plane; the Mi-17 lacks dual-redundant hydraulics, digital FBW and digital autopilot systems, features that can be found in all Western analogues and even in the Indian Dhruv.
WitchaIAF set to buy an additional 59 Mi-17-Vs from Russia in addition to the 80 it ordered in 2008. The first of those 80 Mi-17-Vs will start arriving from this year and replace the Mi-8s which have served the IAF very well for decades.
Also news is that the Il-76 will be upgraded in Russia and then further upgrades will be carried out in India. After these upgrades, the Il-76 fleet will serve the IAF for another decade. C-17s will be likely to replace the Il-76 fleet eventually.
One bad decision after another. The IAF ought to have learned after the original Mi-17 deal had its price doubled. The sole criterion for selecting the Mi-17 over the NH-90/AW101 and other modern Western analogues is price; with that advantage dwindling it’s just an aging platform that lacks advanced avionics and safety features.
At the least the IAF should have asked for the helos to be manufactured domestically given the size of their order; the Chinese are on the right road by buying the Ulan Ude manufacturing plant.
Witcha* And the legendary “Chinese Electronic Surveillance Post”… of which there is no sign on satellite photos, and the IN says “we have no proof anything is there”.
Can you give me a source for that?
From the looks, more likely Top Plate (note the radar is less wide than the Signaal radar behind it.).
It only has a single antenna so I don’t think it’s the Top Plate. It could be the Podberezovik-ET2 with the smaller antenna…?
WitchaI love the way you guys always bring it back to PAF,it is like an obsession!
However, let me clarify.
A-5 – Last sqd now converting to JF-17
Mirage 3/5 = being replaced by JF-17
F-7 = being replaced by JF-17
F-16In future F-20.
So in 2-3 years PAF will operate 3 fighter types.
That compares to 6 for the IAF (MRCA, M2K, MIG-29, SU-30, LCA, Jaguar)
That is still more types then any other air force on the planet….
I don’t know… I’m fairly sure that between all the J-7s, J-8s, J-10s, J-11s, Su-27s, Su-30s and so on the PLAAF operates more aircraft types. There’s also the Russian Air Force with its myriad of MiGs, Sukhois, Ilyushins, Antonovs, Yakovlevs and Tupolevs.:rolleyes:
WitchaNot sure if that would help..Get Indias anti balistic missile system up and running and hope there are enough batteries to ward of the CCS-5.
Also might be best to get a fighter jet that can take off from Roads, not just airfields..
Have these based closer to the front line instead of the Sukhois, and have the sukhois a great deal further back.
Maybe the right time now to not keep buying the best of the best of the best and buy something that can take off from rough landing strips relatively from the middle of no where..
It would also help to develop the andamans a lot more and turn it into an Island fortress
While we’re dreaming about all that, why not establish giant naval bases in the Maldives, Sri Lanka and Vietnam as well?:D
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