Any known differences between the Russian Zubrs and the Ukrainian ones?

I doubt the MMRCA deal will be cancelled , the Russian gent say it may be re-tendered basicly he is just guessing.

If ever MMRCA gets tendered then US will compete with JSF and take the cake.

Frankly, I kind of agree with Ajai Shukla on this matter: If it’ll take till 2017 for the MMRCA to get inducted, why don’t we just go for a fifth-gen design to begin with? Why not the F-35?

I know the TOT issue, but we’re already going to get more advanced fighter technologies from the PAK-FA program by then. Surely HAL doesn’t need both in order to catch up in expertise?

PAK FA is the second phase of

??? Are you talking about future growth?

I very much hope the final PAK FA at least has six internal hardpoints, because just four is a disappointing number for a heavy fighter designed for air dominance and deep penetration strike missions. There are already complaints about 4 AMRAAMs being inadequate for the F-35, and that’s an aircraft much smaller than the T-50.

And while there’s been a lot of talk regarding side bays, I haven’t seen any diagrams that show where they could be located. Do the T-50 prototypes till now even have any?

No.
One is enough.

😡

You don’t like Putin?

If India doesn’t fund half of the cost then it gets no fighter because without Indian funding Russia simply cannot afford to create its own 4++ gen fighter all on its own.

Then Russia won’t get a fighter either(btw it’s 5 gen, though I know with your disdain for its stealth capabilities). Which is why it should be offering India more benefits for it to be a partnership.

And there were other options, if India was only willing to be a little more adventurous instead of only clinging to ‘the sure thing’ with the Russians. EADS, Dassault and Saab have all studied VLO aircraft designs with only funding being the factor stopping them from actually developing one. Saab even intends to fly a technology demonstrator in the near future. And there’s the KF-X and ATD-X.

If the Indian government had played its cards right we could have been involved in a true multinational Eurofighter-style partnership(with South Korea and with EADS/Dassault/Saab acting as a technology partner) for an aircraft closer to the medium class stealth design the IAF originally wanted, the MCA.

If we’re going to be funding 50 percent of the program cost(as reports seem to indicate) we DAMN BETTER get a share of the IP and export pie. The Eurofighter partners all got it for less. Otherwise, as BlackArcher said, an MKI style licence production deal is more than enough.

I am rather sceptical that TOT for licenced production is going to affect HAL’s technical competency for aircraft design(in particular the AMCA) in the long run, seeing how the Su-30 licenced production hasn’t benefited the LCA in any significant manner and in fact technology absorption there has been progressing slower than desired, with HAL still dependent on Russian assembly kits to meet production numbers.

I believe the Indian MOD missed a big opportunity by not partnering up with South Korea when they were looking for a partner for the KF-X program. That would have been the best way to develop the AMCA concept. At the least it would have provided a true bi-nation development programme and a true partnership with mutual ownership and export rights.

Yeah, Pogosyan let slip as long ago as Farnborough 2010 that the two types would differ in source code/software only. He would have had a good idea of where the FGFA was headed, irrespective of media speculations.

Evidently the Indian side has finally dropped the 2-seater in return for more R&D involvement and more ToT, and the Russian side gets a major funding stream for the EMD phase as this deal ramps-up the production infrastructure/technology investments in both countries. Which is good.

Better to wait for more official and concrete details as timelines look a bit skewed, though I do anticipate HAL and IAF pilots participating in flight testing @ Lipetsk when state trials commence there. At least the budget is starting to look a bit more realistic and there may be hints of concurrency Indo-Russian style (but definitely not LM style!). Together with the ‘Super 30’, R&D concessions/ToT looks like a determined effort by the Russians not to lose market share in the World’s hottest defence market (and traditional ally).

Sheesh, I just hope ActionJackson’s ‘stealth charts’ don’t yet scupper this deal! 🙁

I’m wondering whether it’s better that the deal be scuppered after all.

From the looks of it the FGFA will be no more than a T-50MKI, that is, a PAK-FA with some Indian components. Far from the ‘Indo-Russian fighter’ that was and still is being advertised. I don’t even think we’ll get any co-ownership of the IP in order for joint marketing and international sales.:(

R & D involvement? Nearly all the critical parts are already being developed by Russia and are likely to be what the IAF eventually goes for. Design, engines & propulsion, radars, IRST and EW suite, datalinks, all the weapons, even the construction materials originate in Russia! There isn’t much scope for HAL/DRDO here beyond maybe the cockpit and some Computer/navigation equipment (similar to the MKI). I suppose they can throw in the TOT and licenced production for HAL(But probably no re-export licences though; this ‘Indo-Russian’ fighter is a lot more Russian than Indian after all:rolleyes:) and call it indigenous development. I doubt it’d enhance their technological competence a lot more than the MKI deal did.:mad:

Aside from the level of TOT I can’t really see how joining the F-35 program would have been too different.

Look, for most of this thread the arguments have just been going back and forth between ‘The PAK-FA’s design is not stealthy, look at the F/A-22, F-35 and J-XX!’ and ‘Trust Sukhoi, they know better than us!’ Personally I can’t help but lean towards the former, but I can objectively acknowledge that we amateurs will never know exactly how stealthy the PAK-FA is unless and until we hear reliable reports from people ‘in the know’ at HAL, Sukhoi, the RuAF or IAF. And that’s likely to take years, and even then it’d be debatable.

So I think both sides should tone things down a bit and let the program take its course.