The trouble I have with people who criticizes government institutions is the alternative that they choose, ie dismantle the entire organizations and hand it over to the private sector.

Quite interesting that you took that link to discredit BEL for the numerous achievements they had. The achievement by TATA power was good, nothing wrong about that but what Kalam did was to pursue a goal that India has set for itself, ie participation of the Indian private industry, but it does not mean that private sector and government PSUs cannot coexist.

Though small but deliberate steps have been taken in this direction. But the effect of these would be seen only in the decade to come. Of course there would be resistance, is that something strange, look all over the world it happens whenever a major change in policy is made.

I still wished you try to compile a paragraph on what GTRE did.

No hard feelings, I understand what you desire but I guess our ways are different.

Firstly, BEL in particular does not have many ‘achievements’ to its name. Indian defence PSUs/Ordinance factories and DRDO labs operate in a manner similar to Soviet/Russian production plants and design bureaus, that is the DPSUs/OFs don’t have much in the way of inhouse R & D and primarily manufacture designs developed by DRDO or licensed from foreign firms.

Secondly, the ‘small’ steps you talk about(which involves sub-contracting components from private sector) are peanuts compared to the vast potential and enthusiasm that is there. Nurturing our own Boeings, Lockheed Martins and BAE Systems is the only way India can develop a defence industry comparable to Russia or the West. Being a democracy we can’t approach the extreme socialist philosophy to government-run defence institutions that Russia and China have(i.e. ‘deliver or lose funding and go broke’) so this is the only viable route to have efficient, productive defence R & D.

I have no problems with private sector coexisting with the DRDO and DPSUs; only I want the private sector to be given a fair chance and for defence manufacture to be allowed gradually shift from public to private just like all other industrial sectors, with DRDO eventually playing a role like DARPA.

However the above will never happen because the DRDO/DPSU/OFB employees have vitriolic attitudes towards competition from the private sector and keep continuously pressurising our already socialist Defence ministers like Antony to keep defence closed off from the private sector. The Tata Power incident isn’t isolated: read the archives of Colonel Ajay Shukla’s blog. Also google ‘Defence PSUs: the Great Betrayal’ written by another defence personnel to see the Armed Forces’ view on these ulterior motives preventing them from getting the indigenous systems they want.

This is what I dislike about the defence institutions the most. After decades of monopoly they have developed a culture of entitlement; they seem to think the armed forces exists only to buy their products when it is the complete opposite. If the Navy decides L & T is best qualified to build warships then L & T should build, not half-bankrupt overstaffed PSU Hindustan Shipyards Ltd just for the sake of keeping staff employed at the cost of delays.

Yes but more hulls would have to be ordered. The T26 is supposed to be a fair bit cheaper than a T45, thanks largely to not having very expensive radars etc that the T26 simply doesn’t need. The question arises, does ordering more T45’s to cover the number of ships we need in the ASW role cost more than ordering the equivalent in a new class? You also need to factor in how effective each ship would be in the ASW role. As I understand it the machinery on an ASW vessel and propulsion need to be carefully looked at so as not to interfere with the TAS.

If T45 had originally been designed as both an AAW and ASW vessel it might have been cheaper to simply use one class with more equipment on than we really need, but I doubt it would be a possibility now.

And whilst a lot of the ASW capability does come from the Merlin, they’d have quite a hard time finding a sub on their own using only the dipping sonar, the TAS is also a crucial element. @Pj: There isn’t a single nation that has ASW capabilities that seems to think that their ASW can be replaced with a few helos flying off a merchant or auxiliary ship. Just because it seems like a good idea on internet forum doesn’t mean you aren’t missing something.

They Type 45 already has a good hull-mounted sonar. And what exactly would be the difficulty in integrating a TAS?

All that you are referring to is mismanagement but you have not criticized the technical guys and the solution you propose is disband them all. So what ever they acquired you want to go waste or want to transfer them to private sector.

I get it, this is not just about GTRE but about how the PSUs and all government institutions were run in India under the socialist attitude.

But then, how many private firms have ventured into designing car engine in India, did any body restrict them from doing it? How many software firms in India are into product development and have gained a good market share for their product?

Its quite intresting to meet many a people on forums putting private industry as the sole saviors of every mistakes of public firms. Every coin has two sides. What about the high cost escalations of defense projects executed by private industry in the west. Do you know what was the intended unit cost of JSF and what it is now?

Private industry operates only on profit motive, nothing wrong about that, but the private sector in India does not have the deep pocket to go into detailed R&D as it may not always result in a successful product. If you have any doubt on it look at the number of partnership that the private industry in India has entered with foreign defense companies and most of them is not about R&D but about making products using foreign designs.

I wished you would compile a report on what GTRE did rather than what GTRE did not do? The second part is easily available in a Google search, but the first part?

You’re not looking at the other side of the equation: defence PSUs(at least in India; Russian and Chinese state-owned firms fiercely competitive and expected to be self-sufficient) are non-commercial and non-profit with assured funds for research and expansion; they don’t have to worry about profit margins and stock prices. If private firms operated the way PSUs and DRDO did they’d soon go bankrupt.

Research is unprofitable. If private firms had the same advantages the PSUs are given(research grants, duty exemptions for importing materials, etc.) then they would run circles around the DPSUs. That’s how R & D is done in the West. The Rashtriya Udyog Ratna(RUR) scheme was aimed at this but was delayed and ultimately cancelled due to wide-scale opposition from DRDO, DPSU and OFB labour unions, which shows that even the defence public sector believes of its effectiveness(and resultant loss of monopoly and jobs for them).

Heck, even without those advantages the private sector has still shown potential to beat the DPSUs when given a fair chance… which it usually isn’t since the MoD babus and netas are mostly socialists who are hand-in-glove with the DPSU management and trade unions.
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2010/02/mod-breaks-its-own-rules-to-favour-its.html

In the Samyukta project, Tata Power SED produced an entirely Indian Control Centre, the heart of the system. Rahul Chaudhry, CEO, Tata Power SED, elaborates, “Our engineers wrote a million lines of code for the Samyukta. We also produced the ruggedised control workstations, entirely renouncing any support from foreign entities.”

In contrast to Tata Power SED’s indigenous effort, Business Standard has learned that BEL’s share of the Samyukta, including the crucial radio sub-systems, imported the bulk of its components from vendors that included Thales (France); Rhode & Shwartz (Germany); and Elisra (Israel).

Note that Tata Power was originally entrusted the task by APJ Abdul Kalam, who was the then head of DRDO and an ardent believer of indigenous R & D efforts. Why didn’t he entrust it to BEL?

A purely defensive force doesn’t serve as much of a deterrent to nations that decide to spend more on their military, than you. It also takes the teeth out of your diplomatic power, and makes one a paper tiger.

A high price to spend just to intimidate some dictator. I should think being a nuclear power should be enough of a deterrent in that area. I doubt the Defence Ministry spends tens of billions on weapon systems for the sake of superior diplomacy.

It’s more than pride – it is British ‘interest’. I know it tends to be seen as ‘looking backwards’ to bring up the South Atlantic but I see energy as one of the main potential areas of conflict in the next 30 years. Whether some like it or not the people in that area ARE british citizens.

By ‘isles’ I was including the Falklands. Even neglecting the fact that Argentina’s armed forces are hardly in a situation to win such a confrontation even if they’d muster up the courage after decades.

It would be difficult to relocate the RBU-6000 aft (or anywhere else for that matter) because underneath it is both an ammunition supply and an automatic reloading system, which rather limits the options.

I know that. However another raised platform could be erected, for instance, in that space besides the chimney stack.

I’m surprised the Indian Navy didn’t ask for more Klub launchers. The space on the Talwars is severely under-utilized.

It’s a real waste to just scrap them like that. If their lifespans can be extended by another 15 years via refit then they can be used as helo carriers/LPDs or sold elsewhere in that role.

Alternatively they could scrap the Type 26 and instead build a sizable fleet of corvettes and PT boats for coastal defence. The Type 45s could be modified with harpoons to serve as escorts for the CVF along with missile defence.

The concept has potential, but I can’t see a laser-based CIWS system having much success outside of the US Navy. When it comes to CIWS most countries generally go for the cheapest solution avaiable, sometimes even manned AA guns(the Type 45s).