9M96E
Range-1 to 40 km
Altitude-5 to 25,000 meters
Warhead-24 kg HE Frag
Guidance-I/AR
The BUK-M1-2’s 9M317 has similar performance, 42km range and 25km ceiling. What is BUK-M2’s performance? I cannot find any info on this system
both, especially MSAM/MRADS.
Anyways, any more info on the 9m96 SAM system?
once SDB/Longshot/DAMASK and ATFLIR come online, F-18 will own MiGs in A2G. no russian system can match the long range, cheapness, flexibility (GPS/IIR), precision and huge loadouts (4 SDBs per pylon) the Hornets will have. i doubt MiG-29s are ever going to be able to independently bomb precisely 16 separate targets 60 miles away in a single sortie, something the Hornet will soon be capable of.
I totally agree, the SDB is a GREAT weapon imo, including the LOCAAS and few others. the 115 kg SDB will be able to give the same punch as the 500kg KAB-500S yet for a longer range, 4 times lighter weight therefore more could be carried resulting in MUCH better capabilities. A plane can carry 4 of these on a hardpoint yet only a single KAB-500S can be carried. the SDBs will provide probably 4 times more power for the same weight.
The Russians seemed to have caught up to the Americans in the capabilities in many fields, but in the A2G weapons, the Americans have taken off again especially with JDAM, SDB and other weapons. The Russian ARMs, AshMs, AAMs seem a lot better than their American counterparts, on paper. But a lot of things are on paper, even a lot of American weapons have yet to be tested properly.
BTW the JCM has it’s Russian counterpart which has already been developed to be tested in the future. The Hermes/Germes is a 100kg missile, being deployed in 18 and 40km ranges. The 18km is the version for Helicopters and is INS then laser guided I think, while the 40km version is for high flying fixed wing aircraft, ground vehicles like light jeeps and etc as well as patrol boats and is radar/IR guided. The 40km version can be extended to 100km with a 210mm booster. It is also being developed in a passive version, probably for ARM purposes.
I think the upgraded F-14 would’ve been far superior to the upgraded F-18(SH). However look at the current situation.
The F-18E/F and F-35C will become USN’s two major combat aircraft among the Carriers in the future. The F-18E/F is tasked with Air Defense and the F-35C will be tasked with Strike. Now what is really bugging me like I’ve said in the previous post is why WOULD you give the F-18E/F task of AD when it is a poor fighter, it can barely go supersonic with many AAMs and it will probably be matched by Flankers and J-10s of PLAAF/PLANAF, not beaten by but matched where there is a difference. Now the F-35C will be a MUCH better fighter, it’s stealthy and FAST and would be able to tackle out there any other fighter effectively including PLAAF/PLANAF Flankers and J-10s.
Now, if you gave F-35C the task of Air Defense which it would be much better at than the SH then why not give the SH the task of bomb trucking but considering when the F-35C can ALSO deliver the same ammount of SDBs in it’s internal bays across a greater range, in a stealthier manner and much faster than a F-18E/F can do for the same ammount of SDBs? Is there a need for the F-18E/F really?
Now look at the potential situation of the upgraded F-14 instead of SH and F-35C. In Air Defense, the upgraded F-14 + Phoenix would be a big match against anything out in the World, however why take the F-14 when the stealthier F-35 would be able to tackle anything out there and as good as the upgraded F-14? In the bomb trucking role, the F-14 will have longer range and better payload, but when it will be trucking SDBs across a great distance(much like the F-18E/F) the F-35 will be able to do it, maybe at a shorter range but it will come in stealthy and fast and get out stealthy and fast. And this will be important when going through thousands of Chinese SAMs.
Now, in the future, you’re all talking what about other weapons like Harpoon and for example HARM, well the SDB will be used in the ARM role much like the F/A-22 plans to use it. Harpoon is a different story, but a F-35 with 4 Harpoons will probably not be detected by any capable ship up until a pretty short distance, but this is not a disadvantage considering both the potential upgraded F-14 and the SH carrying the same load would not be detected at any farther distance.
Now, in the current situation some of you say the SH is a cheap option instead of buying all F-35s. Well I think USN could’ve studied this better considering purchasing F-35s only than F-35+SH might be little more expensive but in the longer term, you have a more capable strike force of many F-35s than a few F-35s+few SHs for the same cost, plus you operate one type of aircraft therefore no need for a infrastructure, extra crews and etc to support the others.
IMHO the F-35C could’ve replaced the A-6s, F-18s and F-14Ds and there would’ve been no need for an upgraded F-14 or F-18 to replace these. I think the F-35C would’ve been better than upgraded F-14 or current F-18E/Fs in AA, Interdiction and every other role probably.
As for the 9M62, your guess is as good as mine. All I know is it is supposed to be a missile associated with the MRADS. The RVV-AE-ZRK has been mentioned as an alternative to this as well as the 9M96.
So 9M62 was the original missile planned but R-77-ZRK and 9M96 are alternatives?
Ok what are the 9M100(first time I hear of it), 9M332 and 9M62?
So any more info on the 9M96E SAM or the R-77-ZRK?
After looking up some data on the APG-73 and the Zhuk-ME, I found that maximum ranges for air-to-air targets are about 185-km for the -73 and about 115-km for the Zhuk.
Can’t tell ya much there, I don’t know so much about radars
Additionally you have to look at cockpit ergonomics. That’s an area where the Hornet has always been superb. The Fulcrum is finally beginning to catch-up to the Hornet, but with the advent of the latest color MFD’s (including touch-screen displays in the case of the Super Hornet), the Hornet is still ahead. The cockpit of the Hornet also provides better visiblity than the relatively low-cut (for a “bubble” canopy) canopy that is on the MiG.
Ohh so what if the Hornet is a little more comfortable or if it’s MFDs are a tiny bit better or if the Hornet is little easier to service, big freakin deal because during wartime, this is not going to make such a huge difference, except the servicibiliy rates, where the GAP is not that much bigger.
Additionally I looked up some range performance figures for the MiG-29M, and they don’t seem to be that much better than the SMT, which means the Hornet is still slightly ahead in this area. The Hornet can certainly carry more external fuel. Additionally, the Hornet has a larger weapons load, and when you look at bring-back capability, the Hornet will remain way ahead of the MiG-29K.
The F-18C/Ds performance is a tad bit better but the gap is not humongous out there to make these advantages make the F-18 seem so much better. The GAP is pretty short
Srbin,
You keep mentioning weapons like the R-77-PD, which sound superb on paper, but how do you know they will perform as advertised?
The AIM-120C7 might not work as advertized either, however if you want you can currently compare the normal AIM-120C with the R-77E if it makes you feel better.
KS-172? On The Fulcrum? Give me a break. The drag on that thing is enormous and a fighter the size of the Fulcrum isn’t really very suited to carry a weapon that large.
The KS-172 is rather large, but 2 would be enough and they would be fired at AWACS rather before the actual BVR fight went on, doesn’t matter how draggy they are in the beggining they will be gotten rid of before enemy fiighters start shooting MRAAMs. There were never plans to fit the KS-172 on any Mig-29 variant, instead they opted for the R-37M, however the KS-172 was planned on the Flanker. It’s all bureaus teaming up against other bureaus.
And say what you want about the HARM, but I’d say it has more than proven itself in combat against various types of radar systems, and with further improvements it will only get better.
The HARM is rather slow and short ranged, giving radars plenty of time to shut down and move on, where as Kh-31P is longer ranged and twice as faster thereby reducing the time. I wouldn’t exactly call HARM’s performance over Serbia so great, though I don’t think Kh-31P would’ve done so much better, but the point is that it has much greater performance.
Weapons like the P-900, Yakhont, and Kh-59 are also something I have my reservations about……at least as far as carriage by the MiG-29 is concerned. The Flanker or the Fencer? Yes, I can easily see them carrying it, but it would put a huge drag penalty therefore futher reducing range.
The Mig-29M/SMTs payload should allow for carriage of at least 1 Yakhont and possibly up to 3 Alfas as discussed on other threads. The Kh-59 would be stuck to probably one since it requires a pod so thats a bitch.
Yes the KAB series might be cheaper, but how accurate are they compared to the latest Paveway III’s? They are certainly not any better aerodynamically.
Maybe soo and I’ll give you that one, but their cost makes up for it really.
And the Kh-25 better than the Maverick? I wouldn’t be so certain about that. The only advantage I can see with the Kh-25 is that it comes in an anti-radar version, which is a nice feature.
It really isn’t, the Maverick is longer ranged and etc however these are rather both short ranged weapons.
Where on the MiG is the SAPSAN carried? I’d be willing to wager it puts much more a drag penalty on the MiG than the Sniper does on the Hornet.
I assume centreline hardpoint, the SAPSAN looks pretty small, you should look at some pics to judge how draggy it is before you make that judgement.
R-73M2? How close is it to entering service? Manuvering capabilities compared to the AIM-9X, AIM-132, and IRIS-T?
I think it already is in service in low numbers in Russia, not sure though. There were some discussions on there. Anyways, they are all maneuverable enough to hit any fighter, just cuz A missile can maneuver 60gs while B missile can maneuver 30gs doesn’t mean the B missile will not get the hit at the same range. Even 20Gs is an overkill.
The only advantage I can see for the MiG that would warrant a second look at it is the political angle.
And the fact that it’s something like 2.5 times cheaper than the Sewer Hornet. F-18C/D is no longer in production and E/F is only offered. I am not sure the Sewer Hornet is 2.5 times more capable than the Mig-29M for say.
I would like to see more info on the “cheaper BUK-M2”
Yes, but using missile’s active radar which has a pretty small range right? Something like 20kms correct me if I am wrong! I still think for it to be effective to it’s maximum it will need external sources.
Now, what is MRADS and what about the Fakel 9M96(which I understand is S-400’s shorter ranged missile)
Yes, but you would need quite a lot of radars with high antennas to actually see any sort of low flying cruise missiles. Some sort of radar like for example the one for TOR-M1 or ASRAD could be used in conjuction with 1-2 vehicles with radar cued MANPADS to protect all kinds of fixed sites which would be targeted by things like Tomahawks and such.
Ok I see, I just thought the R-77M was bigger and had more fuel and such then they gave it a ramjet motor to become R-77M-PD.
Any more info on the R-77-ZRK SAM? All I have is a little pic of it here from this site
Can someone translate these two sites? I can’t seem to find some decent translators to do it.
http://www.mod.gov.sk/e-ziny/armada/2002_02/008.html
http://news.sina.com.cn/w/2004-05-19/10082569045s.shtml
If that pic is right and thats what R-77-ZRK is sopposed to look like, then it seems like a decent SAM based on that, a single piece vehicle, with it’s own radar and it would have to deploy and such. I would assume R-77-ZRK would have similar performance as SLAMRAAM/CLAWS/NASAMS, a range of some 33kms and ceiling of 15km. Except that the SLAMRAAM…. ones are just launch vehicles and have to get the info from other sources.
this was quoted from a Chinese site
“The second kind is casement RVV-AE-ZRK. This ball uses two levels of solid fuel propellant auxiliary booster, therefore middle the shell body the diameter increases. It is said that, this ball possibly uses in substituting at present to use in SA-6 in the cube [SA-6 Kub] guided missile system 3M9 missile”
So as it appears the 160km ramjet R-77-PD was considered for this SAM. The obvious question is, wouldnt the rocket powered R-77M be much more effective at boosting up than a ramjet R-77-PD which is rather inefficient at low altitude.
I thought that the R-77-PD was developed from the R-77M making it in the future R-77M-PD. AFAIR Besides the standard long range 160km ramjet R-77 planned for RuAF, there are plans also to develop an IR and Passive versions too.
Actually in the future the Mig-29M will offer bigger array of weapons than a F-18C/D or even E/F will. However, I do not think it matters who has a bigger array of weapons but rather whose weapons are better.
The list is, R-73M2, R-77M-PD(radar, IR, passive versions) will be roughly comperable to the future AIM-120C7 and it will have some 60km longer range than the Meteor or AIM-120C7, KS-172/R-37M Anti-AWACS missile of which no American or European plane has a counter to, Kh-31P which is way better than the HARM, Kh-25MPU which is a lightweight ARM, P-900 Alfa which is a very lethal AshM and I think up to 3 could be carried on a Mig-29M, the Yakhont-M which up to 1 could be carried and could be used in land attack missions, the extended range Kh-35E1 to 250km, not bad for a light subsonic sea skimmer etc. There is the Kh-59M(100+km) and the improved 250km version.
But look at the comparison
R-77M-PD(passive)>
R-77M-PD(IR)>
KS-172 or R-37M>
Kh-25MPU>
Kh-31AD>
P-900 Alfa>
Kh-59MK>
Yakhont/Brahmos-A>
Yakhont-M(land attack)>
Kh-29L/TE>
>JSOW
>LOCAAS
>SDB
KAB-500S>JDAM
KAB-250/500/150(laser)>Paveway Series -KAB series much cheaper to buy
Hermes>JCM -both are rather undeveloped
Kh-25_>AGM-65 -the Kh-25 comes in bigger variety and cheaper
Kh-35>Harpoon -pick your choice, don’t matter
Kh-31P>HARM -definitely the Kh-31P, much better
Kh-SD(possibly)>JASSM -I highly doubt the 600km Kh-SD will ever get integated much rather than exported, JASSM will be bitchy to buy since it’s so expensive
Kh-59M>SLAM-ER -not sure how good the SLAM-ER is
SAPSAN/M400>Sniper-XR -the Sniper-XR is much better, though SAPSAN is no slouch either once again
R-73M2>AIM-9X -either
R-77M-PD(radar, 160km range)>AIM-120C7(100km range) -well, both missiles are a while to come so hard to compare, but just the range figures give the R-77 advantage.
-So as you can see, Mig-29M’s advantage goes in terms of most of the weapons except shorter A2G weapons. However, it’s A2G weapons are no slouches and are cheap to buy therefore can be bought in much larger numbers than that of the F-18’s.
-Mig-29M is MUCH cheaper, something like twice as cheaper if not even more, therefore I can get 2 Mig-29Ms for a single F-18E/F possibly, this matters a lot and don’t try to ignore it.
-The Mig-29M is not going to come with all kinds of political strings attached, and the Russians are rather much less likely to slap embargoes and such on you during the war than the Americans will.
Yes the F-18C/D is a rather reliable plane, with good service record, but the Mig-29As were no slouch either, and the new SMTs and Ms are not in any way bad.
When it comes to weapons
F-18 Mig-29
AIM-120C7(100km) R-77M-PD(160km)
AIM-9X R-73M2
KS-172
Harpoon Kh-35
Kh-31AD/M, Yakhont, Kh-59MK, P-900 Alfa
Paveway series, JDAM KAB-series(laser & GPS in the future), Kh-25MX series, Kh- 29X series
JASSM, JSOW, SLAM-ER Kh-59MEh, Yakhont-M
HARM Kh-31P, Kh-25MPU
Weapons wise, the Mig-29M/SMT has a bigger array of weapons, and most of it’s weapons seem better except the JDAM but in the future Russia will have decent GPS bombs but for now the TV/Laser ones are no slouches and are cheap.
When it comes to selling abroad, the Mig-29M/SMT is much cheaper and not to mention the Americans are rather bitchy about politics.