ante_climaxthe deal for the Mirage upgrade has NOT been finalised, and there has been NO sale of ASRAAMS to India to date. Even a respected journal like AW&ST regularly goofs up and when I did read about IAF and ASRAAMS, it was related to a RFP to arm its Jaguars since the MAGIC-II’s shelf life was nearly over.
Has not been finalized does not mean proposals were not made. It only says plans. 😉
ante_climaxDon’t you even read your own sources? I read that years ago (though it seems you haven’t) & know that it says, among other things,
“The ASRAAM is radically different in many respects from other established and development missiles designed for WVR combat. The missile is heavily optimised for best possible pre-merge performance, following the contemporary dictum that whoever gets the first shot off is likely to win. Therefore the missile is built from the outset to acquire an opponent and successfully engage it at maximum range.”“The ASRAAM is designed to enable the early engagement of opposing fighter aircraft, and this is reflected in the missile’s combination of highly sensitive FPA seeker, midcourse inertial package and high energy motor. In a pre-merge engagement scenario, the FPA seeker allows target acquisition at significant BVR ranges, and the inertial midcourse guidance package means that the missile can be fired if necessary even blind to intercept an inbound threat aircraft. The high energy motor provides very high acceleration, and range performance which has traditionally been the domain of radar guided BVR missiles.”
You’re citing documents in support of your arguments which contradict them. 😀
Where did you get the “tv seeker” from, BTW? It has an imaging infrared seeker (as does Mica IR), which ain’t the same thing.
Still where does it say anything about radar being required for mid course correction etc ?
ante_climaxhow do you know ? do you have any figures to back up your claim?
I know because it was all over the news and have been discussed in different forums. I have been searching for it. Will post it here or pm you the link when i find it.
ante_climax1. Black Shahine, or an India-specific equivalent (a slightly range-shortened Scalp), is available on request. If France will sell it to the UAE, it will certainly sell to India. That requires no integration with Rafale or Typhoon. It’s considered too dangerous (to what it’s aimed at) by the USA to allow integration on the F-16E. Just think – buy the F-16IN & you too can be told what weapons you aren’t allowed to buy from the USA for it, & what foreign (or Indian) weapons you aren’t allowed to integrate with it. Enjoy!
2. Horses for courses. They aren’t alternatives, they perform different roles. JDAM or LGBs are cheaper, & therefore better for most targets, but not much good for the high-value heavily-defended targets on the first day of a war. Ideally, you should have both.
1. Like I said India will not take unfair demands from the U.S. I think LM and Boeing will put enough pressure on the Admin that concessions will be made.
2. I agree. But India is already integrating the Brahmos into its Su 30s, while SS may be more suitable for the job, will we invest on such an expensive weapon. I doubt it.
ante_climaxwhy have a JV with Israel when India is already conducting test shots of the Astra BVR missile? IAF may want to integrate it with the MRCA if its successful, and for that it’ll require the source codes for the radar..I’m quite sure that the US will not part with it.
Because Israel and India face common challenges. Another reason is that they already have a very highly advanced missile programme so the resulting missile will not take as much as time as an indigenous one. Astra is a BVRAAM, we are still totally reliant on foriegn supplies for WVRAAM. The R 73 superiority is going to end with AIM 9x and ASRAAM.
Like I said LM and Boeing will not be fools to let an 18 billion dollar deal slip through during an economic crisis. There will be much pressure on the U.S administration with regards to this.
I also see the India specific radar modes as a hint to integration with missiles which we prefer.
ante_climaxNo, not too lazy. Mrely pointing out that it has not yet been integrated. Like everything else on the as yet unbuilt F-16IN, it is proposed. The F-16IN is a significant development of the F-16, requiring a lot of work. It hasn’t flown. Nothing is integrated with it yet.
You do not know if it has flown or not. It is not a significant development from the Block 60, read that article again and the list of changes. It is basically a souped up F 16 and hence do not require ‘integration’. Hell you are asking to integrate something into an aircraft which has been flying with it for ages.
I will say it again call what you want to, Mark, Tranche, Block, its the same the difference is basically on the radar, avionics and engine front, it will not make a new aircraft.
ante_climaxYes, it is a cruise missile. It’s combat record in 2003 was exemplary, achieving a level of reliability & accuracy that JASSM, after years of trying, is still nowhere near. Its warhead has been bought by the US Navy for the JSOW-C, which might tell you something.
It’s in a different league from GBUs & JDAMs. For high-value, hard-to-get-at, hardened targets. They’re relatively low-cost guided bombs.
I doubt the storm shadow will be sanctioned for India. AS its a cruise missile with a possible 300km+ range. Also the GBUS & JDAMs are cheaper.
ante_climaxThe MICA is a Medium range IR missile. But the ASRAAM is not. Its a short range dog fighting missile with a visual tv and IR seeker.
Read this please
http://www.ausairpower.net/API-ASRAAM-Analysis.html
The missile has two umbilical interfaces, providing both a digital and analogue interface, and compatibility with Sidewinder and AMRAAM umbilicals. Support is provided for aircraft electrical power, and a thermal battery is used for inflight power supply. The interfaces allow the missile to be cued by a Helmet Mounted Sight or Display (HMS/HMD) or by aircraft radar, and a Sidewinder tone is produced for the pilot’s headset.
IAF Falcons will have HMS which really make ur concerns about APG 80/79 integration invalid.
ante_climaxYou know this is nonsense. Rafale can drop AASM (& has done so in combat), which is a superb PGM, busts bunkers pretty damn well, & doesn’t need laser designation. A laser designator pod is being integrated, & will be available long before the MRCA enters service.
What makes you think I was talking about the Rafale. Are you paranoid ? I was only replying to sign.
What laser designator is integrated with F-16IN? None, so far. That doesn’t matter, of course, since I have no doubt that if selected, one will be integrated.
Its Sniper. Because you are lazy to go back a few pages I will post the link again.
Several other systems distinguish the F-16IN from the Block 60, including an electronic warfare system and radar modes tailored for India, dragchute, datalink, satellite communication, and a helmet-mounted cueing system. The F-16IN will carry the Sniper targeting pod as well.
http://www.codeonemagazine.com/archives/2008/articles/jul_08/f16-evolution/index.html
Rafale is able to fire Scalp EG, which is not only one of the best bunker-busters in the business, but has, even in the cut-down Black Shahine version, been barred by the USA from integration on the F-16E. Typhoon is having Storm Shadow (same as Scalp) & Taurus KEPD-350 (another grade A long-range bunker-buster) integrated, in plenty of time for MRCA. You get a choice. And right now, it has Paveway 2, Enhanced Paveway 2 & Paveway IV, & Litening pods.
Gimme a source that says its better than the American types. Is the Storm Shadow not a cruise missile ? I would rather have the GBU Series and JDAM.
I am still waiting to hear from you what the APG 79 has to do with an ASRAAM.
ante_climaxIndia as all customers of US Hardware are free to choose! If, they don’t think the terms are fair. I have no doubt they will find a better alternative……..:cool:
AMEN to that. While i still can’t believe some one who called me Ignorant said this.
You’re demolishing your own arguments, yet again. Back to Asraam & Mica – neither has been integrated with APG-79 – so how would the F-16IN come with them already integrated?
Tell me what APG 79 have to do with a short range infrared seeking dogfight missile :confused:. Hell the R 73 was successfully tested from a radar-less LCA even.
ante_climaxAnd the UAE with the F-16E, which it paid for the development of, but has restricted access to. It’s been allowed to integrate some non-US weapons, e.g. the MBDA PGM-500 & PGM-2000 (or so it appears from pictures), but prevented from integrating the Black Shahine, for example, & can only fire it from the Mirage 2000.
India is not UAE. LM and Boeing stand no chance if they cannot match other competitors as closely in ToT and weapons integration. And they are not fools to let a multi billion dollar deal slip by, especially at the time of a grave economic crisis.
Lets wait and see my dear friend 🙂
ante_climaxYou’re demolishing your own arguments, yet again. Back to Asraam & Mica – neither has been integrated with APG-79 – so how would the F-16IN come with them already integrated?
The APG-79 is much bigger & heavier than APG-80, & could not fit into the F-16. The F-16 would need a smaller derivative of the APG-79, with both a smaller array, & size & weight reductions elsewhere. Those bulges on the F-16E are already full.
I think LM is offering either Northrop Grumman SABR radar to India for the F-16IN (it ain’t owned by the UAE – big advantage), or Raytheon RANGR – i.e. new AESA radars, which Asraam & Mica definitely aren’t integrated with. Both are being marketed as suitable for retrofit to F-16, or Gripen, or F/A-50.
Is the ASRAAM not a close combat heat seeking missile. It would require minimal radar guidance anyway. As per MICA its only one among a long list of options.
See the CODEONE MAGAZINE link I posted. LM says the only difference from Block 60 are radar modes (do not mean new radar), datalink, Dragchute etc.
ante_climaxThat has a lot to do with the U.S political system where everyhting serious have to be ratified by the congress. While in India and U.K you do not need parliament ratification.
Saying that, Hyde is gone now. And many US customers do not experience any such problems, Israel is a good example.
ante_climaxGo & look up the specifications, & you will see immediately that is wrong. You claim F-16IN is based on F-16E/block 60. That is a souped-up, heavier, model than any F-16C. Again, you are contradicting yourself.
No sane person will agree that the F 16 IN is a new untested platform. Heavier becuase it got CFTs and AESA so will the Tranche 3 EF with Captor E AESA.
Lol you can name it Blocks, Tranches, Marks or whatever you wish. It basically is the same aircraft with modular upgrades.
ante_climaxYup. And because of that, gets a levy on every one sold to anyone else, & on any F-16E sold to anyone else.
India is getting F 16 IN it will be slightly different than the E. But LM may pay UAE the royalty if they want to, as long as we are getting the APG 80, we would be happy. And read scoots posts on the proposed new Raytheon radar.
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